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Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 18 Mar 2016, 03:48
by Greg Smith
I thought I should start this when I'm asking about aspects of the build which still aren't clear to me, rather than carrying on in the new members' section. Hope this is OK.

So far, I have put down the keel pieces for my first fuse. half and glued the formers to the keel, except for those involved with the wing mounting, which is a bit of a puzzle. I will be more specific about this on my next post, and after I've learned how to post a picture...
It's clear, though, that since the laser cut was made from the plans, there are things wrong, and since I partly rely upon things going together accurately in order to understand them, this is unfortunate. In low moments, I think that if I'd known what the situation was with regard to this model I would never have invested in it, but would have gone for a Chris Williams design, since this is likely to be by far the most time-consuming project I've undertaken. Not the fault of the laser cutter, of course: though I'm finding the same inaccuracies mentioned in the other threads.

Still, I have the book, the plans and the other threads, so I trust I'll be able to muddle my way through!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 18 Mar 2016, 07:38
by Ian Davis
Greg

I have a Charlesworth Oly and it's my most flown glider for many years. Keep going. the reward will be worth the hassle.

With all the comments about accuracy of components I'm begining to wonder whether the original plan has lost something in translation either at the printing or scanning phase. Let us know where you problem areas are and I will check out my plan to try and understand what's going on.

Pic attachment is very straight forward. Click attachments down below and then add file. So much easier than it used to be.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 18 Mar 2016, 09:29
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Have you found my Charlesworth Olympia build thread in the archived build threads section (page 3). Top up/missing photos are in the current build thread section under (Olympia update).
I have now built 2 of these models and as Ian says, there are plenty of others with Olys who can clarify most issues/queries you will come across.
It does go together ok, but there are a few areas where the plan could possibly be improved in hindsight.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 18 Mar 2016, 09:33
by RobbieB
Greg,

Stick with plan A - as Ian says, you will not be disappointed with the finished model.

There is an abundance of help and advice here on the forum to get you through some minor inaccuracies on the plan.

In all my years of model building from other peoples plans, including power (yes, we used to build power models in those days) I think the number of plans that didn't have mistakes on them could be counted on the fingers of one hand - and still have a few left over.

On the question of image posting, have a look at: http://scalesoaring.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 21 Mar 2016, 20:09
by Greg Smith
Thanks for the most generous replies, everyone; I will definitely post some pictures.
First question: The cutouts in the formers for the keel are shorter than the plan dimension for the keel: something I should have checked, but I just threw down the keel on the plan before I knew any better, then attached the formers, as a first step in the build. Thus the keel protrudes beyong the former (by different amounts, and not because I didn't cut the keel pieces accurately). SO: should I
1) Try to build up each former to the edge of the keel piece or
2) Make the ply shell abut the keel at the top and bottom of the former and have the keel as part of the 'exterior' of the fuse, or
3) Try to cut the keel ON THE PLAN (ugh) to size, since the keel pieces are all attached?

I would think 2, probably? A stupid mistake, but I was thinking at the beginning that the plan must be correct...
I have built a lot from plans, and would make up discrepancies as I went along, but not from plan plus CNC parts. I think having those made me a bit less independent/wary/thinking ahead. Now I know!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 Mar 2016, 08:32
by Ian Davis
Hi Greg

As Cliff says, we really need some pictures to fully understand your problem.

You say that the former/keel mismatch is different on every former, that would suggest that maybe the formers are in the wrong positions on the keel.

What happens when you put a straightedge along the formers at the main longeron position, say between the mainplane trailing edge to the tailplane?. It should be a straight line. ;)

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 Mar 2016, 09:08
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Sorry to hear of your difficulties with your kit, but having now very nearly completed my 2nd 1/4 scale Charlesworth Olympia 2b, I will offer a few comments/suggestions.
My two Olys have gone together pretty well from the plan and two kits of laser cut parts supplied by Cliff Evans.
As with any hand drawn plan, there were a few anomalies and areas of head scratching, but everything worked out in the end.
If you have generally built to a laser kit produced from a totally CAD designed & cut kit then you are likely to find that these have gone together better than if the kit was produced from a hand drawn plan such as a Charlesworth one.
Hand drawn plans are more likely to have small inaccuracies which can be compounded by printing dimensional variations and the 'tracing' process for conversion to a digitised plan where part lines can be misinterpreted/added/missed.

Thus as with cutting your own parts & building from a hand drawn plan, you need to continually check parts against the whole and be ready to adjust as required.
Having said that, apart from a few areas, I found the Olympia parts provided by Cliff to go together pretty well. Cutting issues found during my builds were fed back to Cliff & the cutting drawings amended for future use.

My building philosophy is always to build over the plan wherever possible, adjusting any parts as necessary to fit the plan, particularly the main structures as otherwise you are always likely to be back-pedalling and adjusting everything else downstream as a consequence.

Getting down to your particular issues, I suggest that if you have built the keel over the plan and the formers do not fit, then either the plan or the formers are not scaled correctly, or maybe the odd former has not been traced correctly, or as Ian has suggested, the formers have possibly been fitted in the wrong order.
As a fuselage plan sheet dimensional accuracy check, former F9 should be 272mm high & 75.5mm wide. The tailplane span should be 720mm tip to tip & the distance from the front of former F1 to the front of F16 should be 943mm. (Sorry for metric, but better resolution than imperial measurement!)
If your measured equivalent dimensions are smaller than the above, then this could explain some of the problem.
If you have only started the first (left) fuselage side than I suggest you check the size of the unused (right side) formers over the templates shown on the plan to check for size.
If the former parts are the same size as the plan templates then everything should fit, otherwise you should be able to identify whether plan or the/some parts are out.

I would recommend that you first identify the cause of the fit problem, then if the formers are wrong, carefully remove the offending items by slitting the glue joint with a razor saw, revise the part and replace. If the plan scale is in error, then I suggest that you need to remove all items and start again with an accurately scaled plan, despite all the agro as you will always be chasing your tail because nothing will fit.
I strongly suggest you check the wing ribs against your wing plan templates before starting the wings in case you have any discrepancies there as well.

Hopefully, the issues are not serious & you can quickly identify the cause of the problem & move on quickly as the Olympia is a lovely model to build and fly.
By the way, have you looked at my original Charlesworth Olympia build thread (one of the earliest threads in the archive build thread section). The 1st photo shows the left side fuselage structure, albeit with keel infill strips in place. However, you will hopefully be able to make out that the formers all go to the outside edges of the keel.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 24 Mar 2016, 20:57
by Greg Smith
Once again, thanks for such painstaking and thoughtful replies/help.
I certainly did not assemble the formers in the wrong order! We're talking about a good fit for formers 1-6, then up to 2.5mm out on 12-24, with some variability. The parts were cut by Marc's laser shop, here in the USA. My F9 is 271mm: close enough, eh? Unfortunately, I cut off and disposed of my former outlines as irrelevant, to make the plan small enough to fit on the workbench, so I can't check those further down the fuse. I've attached a couple of pictures: I hope you can see them if I've followed the right procedure. I'm on a Mac, so the instructions are slightly different: I-Phone to Cloud to computer desktop, then drag to attachment point.

I can't go back and disassemble the structure so far: I'm not that much of a perfectionist, and besides, these are the only parts I have and they are strongly attached. I will make do and keep you updated. Above all, I don't want you guys to waste your time with what is, after all, a fairly trivial matter! I greatly appreciate your time and will no doubt be calling upon you for more important things later. If the fuse profile is slightly off, it doesn't matter to me, as long as it's structurally sound and somewhere close.The main difference is that I'll have a keel seam to make invisible when I've finished my ply shell. So I'll attach my ply, then plane/sand the keel back to the ply (very carefully) then fibreglass. I think this should work.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 24 Mar 2016, 21:19
by Greg Smith
Oh, Peter: I looked again at your suggestions, and at your build thread, which is on permanent access in my workshop (on the PC, with a big screen) and it looks, if I understand it correctly, that the ply shells meet at the bottom and top of the formers as a butt joint. Maybe not. Anyway, don't worry further: I'll sort it out. Per ardua ad astra... Mine will be unique.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 24 Mar 2016, 22:33
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
No problem, just ask away.
I note from the single photo attached on your previous reply that I cannot see the lower keel line on the drawing, so I'm not sure whether your lower keel surface is on the line or fractionally over (& maybe similar at the top).
Anyway, your formers should all have gone right to the outer edges of top & bottom keel strips if these outer edges were on the plan lines. I didn't have any problems in this area with either of my builds.
Therefore, yes I did have a butt joint on the skins top & bottom, but that is why the plan says to add the additional 1/4" infill between each former on the keels & sand this back flush to the former edges as it give a decent glueing land for the skins top & bottom. The balsa doubler fitted to each former also increases the skin glueing area, particularly as you will most likely need to add skins in single bay sections for all except the rearmost areas (feathering the vertical edges helps here, so that one skin slightly overlays the next, giving a wider bonding area).
You definitely need to skin the vast majority of the first side whilst it is still firmly pinned to the building board in order to avoid a banana fuselage effect. Once you have the majority skinned ( I did practically all of mine) then you can remove the half shell from the board to add the 2nd side formers & longerons without fear of any distortion.

Yes, you will get a small gap between the skins along the keel lines but the skins are firmly attached via the infill pieces and the small remaining gap is easily filled before glassing. Note that you will need to use filler on the nose area forward of the cockpit to avoid the 'starving animal' appearance as noted on the plan.
Planing off the projecting keel material may well be the best way forward now, but you should have fairly good straight lines from about the rear of the wing area backwards (all around the fuselage) if the former lines are correct. If you have significant hollows then I would say that some of the formers are too definitely small.
Have you checked all the formers against the templates shown on the plan? Even if the plan is not to correct scale, the former templates will also be out by the same amount & should therefore still fit. As I said before, getting the shape right early on saves potential problems downstream/excessive filling to overcome hollows.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 01:46
by Greg Smith
Thanks again, Peter, for such a detailed, clear and amazingly timely commentary; I understand completely the importance of straight lines down the fuse, and the necessity of building up any low areas or reducing any high spots. My straight lines actually look pretty good!
I'll keep you posted.

Sometimes I think I should do a build log of the psychological challenges rather than the physical ones, or a sociological analysis of marriage roles and the use of spare time... While I love everything about flying, and most about building, I also love the outdoors, guitar playing and watching 'Foyle's War' in the evening with my wife. There is a couple who live round the corner who BOTH fly model aircraft!

Oh, when I tried to drag and drop another picture, I got 'HTTP error'. No idea what that means.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 08:08
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Sometimes when you try to add a picture, the load fails.
I just delete that attempted load & try again with the image from scratch as it usually works at the 2nd attempt.
I normally now add a title to successful uploads so that I know which photo I am trying to reload as uploads from my IPad photo collection all come up with a default 'image' label.
If your fuselage lines are coming out pretty straight then you shouldn't have a problem later.
Good luck with the build progress.
I hope to put up some pics of my latest Oly build later today.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Mar 2016, 09:06
by Barry_Cole
I got 'HTTP error'. No idea what that means.

As Peter says, it is computer speak for, try again.....

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 18 Jul 2016, 20:55
by Greg Smith
After a long time away from the bench I finally started again yesterday full of misgivings, but just went one step at a time and got something done. I'm presently building up the necessary formers to level with the keels and with each other ready to plank the first fuse half. The F7/8- F12/A longerons were a real bummer: slots didn't fit, but I just barged ahead and modified them as seemed to be needed. I think the basic problem is that in order to build well, one needs to know what is crucial to get accurate and what can be fudged later if a mistake is made, or there is an inaccuracy and I don't thoroughly understand with this design what is OK to make do with and what will come back to bite me. Ah, well, time will tell! At present I am feeling more optimistic that with the invaluable help of Peter's photos, things will work out...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 21 Jul 2016, 02:22
by Greg Smith
Question, please!
My ply parts have a one-piece F21, which I have glued to the top and bottom keel pieces and the side stringer. Looking at Peter's picture and the plan, it appears that actually F21 should be in two pieces, and the top piece is forward of the bottom piece by about 10mm to provide a 'front stop' for the tailplane platform. Is this correct? If so, I'll have to do a bit of disassembly. Why would F21 be supplied as one piece? Or have I misunderstood the plan?
Thankyou!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 21 Jul 2016, 02:25
by Greg Smith
Sorry, guys! I've just seen the plan view sheet on which F21 has a cut line across it: so I now understand what to do. I wish the former had not been supplied as one piece, though!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 21 Jul 2016, 09:33
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I found a similar issue, but in practice I think it better the former is supplied in one piece as you can then glue it in place where the bottom half goes (using temporary packing under top edge) & lock in place with longeron, before cutting top section off with a razor saw & setting that in correct position using longeron as a bottom edge height guide.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 21 Jul 2016, 16:20
by Greg Smith
Makes sense, Peter.
Latest little thing: in the CC book, he makes a big point about the centre section ribs going on after the fuse is almost complete, but you (Peter) and I both attached the first one, at least, as part of building the first side, in order to stabilise the formers F11, 9, and 8b. I hope this works out OK, as I know that this area of alignment is critical to accurate wings and so, straight flight!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 20:30
by Greg Smith
Fairly easy question, I think: can I wait to do the tailplane mount and the wheel support parts until after I've plyed the first side? It seems that I could, but I noticed on some pictures that perhaps they were done first? Thanks!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 Jul 2016, 22:53
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Yes, I am sure that I fitted the wheel supports & tailskid after skinning both sides of the fuselage.
The tailplane mount was fitted as a single piece so that must also have been fitted once 2nd side formers had been fitted.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 23 Jul 2016, 01:54
by Greg Smith
Thanks so much, Peter! I'm making progress: ordered servos and a wheel. I'm looking forward to doing the ply skinning, although I'm sure I'll be glad to be finished with it as well. I have never built a fuse using this method and I can see that it needs great care. We don't have 'Evostik' : they call it 'contact cement'. I'll try that and the PVA heat method to see which I like best. Regards.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jul 2016, 00:12
by Greg Smith
So ,I have got back to the planking between F5&6. I note Peter's comment about missing the front canopy doubler for 6A. In my laser cut set, I have two balsa 6A's and a couple of unmarked ply pieces which look as if they might be the doublers for the front of the cockpit area. Are these them? They are not quite big enough, at least in my build, so I might have to fabricate new ones. Perhaps Cliff could enlighten me? On the ply sheet, they are burned between the arms of the 'hoop' of rear cockpit former 8b (labelled such on my ply parts, but '8c' on Cliff's plans)... If necessary, I'll provide a picture. I don't really understand the cockpit/fuselage former/stringer relationship, but I'm close, I think. There is no notation on my plans at all for this piece and the plan itself is either faint, or completely missing certain vital lines at the front of the cockpit, in side view.
Oh, and I think I have to cut my own front canopy base from 1/8" ply?
Thanks for any help; hopefully when I get on to the wings, I'll be in more comfortable territory.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jul 2016, 11:51
by Peter Balcombe
Hi Greg,
Yes the canopy frame area is a bit of a nightmare in trying to determine what actually goes on.
I am pretty sure that I made up my canopy lower glazing frames by laminating 1/8" wide strips of 1/64" ply around a positive image former cut using the plan view profile, thus making a 1/8" square hoop. I think this might be shown in the build thread photos.
The small pieces which form the fuselage side of the canopy rear (shown on plan as 8A?) were also difficult & it all needed to be adjusted to fit as best it could, as there is little "meat" in these thin formers to try to get any steamed stringers to stay where you really want them to go!. I think the canopy hoop is 8C.

The two pieces 6A need to be spaced a razor saw distance apart as the rear one forms the front of the canopy base, the other part being retained in the fuselage. (I fitted small magnets in the 6A pieces to retain the front of the canopy).
My canopy base cut line was thus between the two 6As + upper keel piece, between the two 1/8" spruce base stringers & between 8A/8C.

I hope this helps.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jul 2016, 19:04
by Greg Smith
Given that I didn't provide a picture (couldn't bring myself to leave the workshop), you have really helped me sort this out, Peter. Thanks, as always, for such a rapid and clear reply; I finally see how the bits fit together, and it is reassuring to know that one has to 'make it work' with adjustments no matter the skill level of the builder! I have put a horizontal stringer in between F5 and 6 at the level of the fuselage canopy base stringer (which goes from 8b to 6) as a support for what will be a two-piece ply skin. This will definitely make it easier to deal with the cockpit parts. Your picture looking down the fuselage from the nose is very useful to see how the canopy base hoop works; I'm following your advice! I will soon go back to working out how to upload a few pictures to give you an idea of how it's going. Very Best, Greg Smith.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jul 2016, 21:02
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
To add a picture, all you do is;
1 Click on the 'Attachments' tab just below the reply text entry box.
2 Click on the 'Add Files' button which then appears.
3 Navigate to the file you want on your PC (on an iPad you can instead chose to take a picture, chose one from your photo library, or chose one from your iCloud)
4 Select the photo & wait for it to upload (may have to delete & repeat selection if load fails first time)
5 Add a photo title if you wish.
6 Repeat 2-5 as required for further pictures (you can chose more than one at a time but if one fails to load then can be difficult to see which one, so I tend to do it one at a time)
7 Click 'Preview' button if you wish to check picture comes up ok, then Submit as usual.

I think there is a guide to adding photos somewhere in the forum Admin section.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 26 Jul 2016, 10:16
by RobbieB
Peter Balcombe wrote:
..................I think there is a guide to adding photos somewhere in the forum Admin section.
http://scalesoaring.co.uk/phpBB3/viewto ... 32dd63dacf

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 26 Jul 2016, 13:44
by Peter Balcombe
Thanks Robbie,
I knew it was there somewhere but couldn't remember exactly where, whilst in the middle of writing the post!
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 26 Jul 2016, 18:34
by Greg Smith
Thanks guys: I'll get one or two up as soon as I can! I have a PC in the workshop (no pictures on it) and a Mac in the music studio; I usually use a 'Photostream' on Mac, with subscribers. I'm a very recent user of the PC so I'm finding my way on it.
Best, Greg

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 28 Jul 2016, 20:23
by Greg Smith
I'm trying to post pictures; I get 'http error' EVERYTIME, no matter how many times I try to load; I've tried reducing the file size; doesn't work. Any suggestions?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 28 Jul 2016, 20:29
by Greg Smith
Picture? Ah, I added some text, then the picture and it seems to be working...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 28 Jul 2016, 20:42
by Greg Smith
I'll reduce the picture quality next time: I noticed the middle image took a while to download. Oh, the canopy scissors are fantastic for fine cutting/corrections on the thin plywood, and the card templates. Keeping sharp, too.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 28 Jul 2016, 22:12
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Well done.
By the way, I hope that you are actually applying your skins with the first fuselage half structure pinned to a flat board, otherwise you may find it becoming a banana as the skins pull the frame. I kept mine continuously pinned over the plan whilst I skinned the first side, as this then allows you to confirm that the shape is true and the keels stay flat/straight.
Once you have the majority of the first side done then it will be rigid enough to stay straight. (i.e. you will NOT be able to correct any unwanted curvature), so you need to make sure it is straight, and stays straight, as you add the skins.
Once you take it off the board, you can then eye along the keel line to reassure yourself that it is indeed straight from front to rear.
Don't be too concerned that you may not be able to skin the last 1/10" or so to the board on the first side as the resultant gap can be covered when you do the 2nd side or else filled & sanded flush later.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 28 Jul 2016, 22:50
by Greg Smith
Gosh, Peter: that was a rapid response!
Thanks for the warning, and your intuition. Yes, I was concerned about getting the edge of the ply right up
to the edge of the former. I've been checking flatness/straightness as I put each piece on, but I quite see your point. I will
now go to locking the fuse down on the drywall building board and not worrying about the edge so much. Picture coming when the side is complete: but
I am the slowest builder in the WILD West.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 00:50
by Greg Smith
Peter, I notice that your Olympia has a solid skid, as opposed to the 'sprung' one on the plan. This is a particular variant, I guess?
I've finally finished sheeting one half and next is to double up the formers for the second side with their balsa doublers.. A nice, flat fuselage (thank you!) I'm looking forward to finishing the canopy area... Still don't really understand what should be sheeted at this point and what is separate and can therefore be done later. Picture to follow of what I've done in this area.
What weight of glass cloth did you use, and did you use epoxy finishing resin? I'm thinking of using Minwax, which is easy to clean up and not as toxic, but may not be as strong. What do you do about the edges of glass covering? Are you super accurate and butt-join, or do you overlap and fill? It's a job I hate, because of the possibility of messing up after making a good job of the structure. That's why I love Solartex: superbly easy to work with over open frame structures: I'll definitely be using it for the rest of the plane.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 09:43
by RobbieB
Greg,

Whatever you cover the fuselage with always overlap and fair in later, particularly with this 'half boat' type of construction otherwise you will have a severe area of weakness if you are joining top and bottom which is the usual way.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 10:46
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
The Charleworth plan shows a solid rear skid as I have built. (You may be wrongly thinking that the 1/16" inset ply sole is actually a sprung steel skid). The note just below the skid shown on the plan side view states "Med balsa a skid with ply sole set in as shown". The section of the skid at Y-Y below this shows the solid skid fitted below the lower keel.
I locally removed the ply skin next to the lower keel to get a flat area flush with the lower keel so that the balsa skid block had maximum glueing area.

In terms of ply skin around the cockpit area:
The skin goes right up to the top stringer in the canopy area (the one above the pair of "1/8 X 1/8" spruce stringers". The skin also covers former 8A and goes up to the top fuselage stringer (immediately below the bottom of the wing root rib) aft of former 8A.
The skin is cut between the two forward canopy frame sub formers (6A), between the two "1/8 X 1/8" spruce stringers" and also between 8A & 8C (down to level of the two 1/8 X 1/8" spruce stringers.
This should then release a section containing the rear former 6A, most of the upper 1/8" stringer and former 8C (canopy hoop).
When I added my skins, I arranged a skin butt join the 1/8 X 1/8" spruce stringer line in order to be able to see exactly where to cut with a razor saw.

As Robbie says, all skin joints should really be overlapped (with mating bevels sanded on both pieces) in order to increase strength at the joint line. I didn't overlap the right & left side joints along the keels as this would be very difficult and you have the extra balsa glueing lands added there anyway.
If you are glassing the entire fuselage structure as I did, then you need to overlap the glass cloth at top & bottom, or any other place you have a cloth join, in order to avoid weak areas.
I used lightweight 25g/m2 wing skinning cloth for my fuselage.
My build thread shows the cloth laid over the first side. I then added resin over this cloth & made sure it was epoxied a little way over the centrelines. Don't worry if you don't resin coat anything past that line as you can cut this off anyway when the resin has mostly cured. Once the resin has fully cured then sand back the edges to fair these into the other side prior to glassing this. Once the 2nd side is glassed, repeat the edge fairing & then lightly sand all over to smooth off without cutting into the cloth.
I added a final overall thin coat of epoxy to fill the cloth weave prior to final rubbing down with wet & dry papers (used wet) working down to 600 grit prior to painting.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 16:03
by Greg Smith
Thanks again for the detailed advice! The reason I thought there is a sprung spruce skid, not a solid one, is that on my plan, it shows a 'skid bungee cut from car heater hose, with brass brackets' and, at the back, a 'hardwood block'. Also, there is a note which says ''20g dural strop wrapped around skid and screwed to hardwood block, this allows skid to move rearward under compression.' Section y-y being at the tail, I think we're talking about different skids? The nose skid on my plan is surely not solid? But yours seems to be: am I up the creek?
I will try again to post pictures: didn't work last night!
I realize, too, Peter that I need to spend more time looking at your previous pictures and text to avoid asking questions which are dealt with in your threads already. You have been very generous with your time!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 16:36
by Greg Smith
Well, the pictures displayed in the draft/preview, but did not then appear after I submitted the reply...
I've realized, peter, that you thought I was talking about the rear skid. I understand the cross section y-y.
But your front skid seems to be solid, although I couldn't find any close pictures of it.
Oh, and the 'skinning' I was talking about was the f/glassing. The opportunities for ambiguity without pictures abound, but I can't seem to get the latest to upload. All good advice, though: and thanks for your trouble.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 16:48
by Greg Smith
Trying again.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 17:12
by Greg Smith
So, one picture worked, but not four... Slow upload speed, I think.

As Greg is having difficulties uploading, I will do it for Him.

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 17:40
by Peter Balcombe
Sorry Greg, I got the wrong end of the stick as for some reason, I thought you meant the rear skid rather than the main skid :? :?
Yes, I fitted a solid skid as I reckoned that this would withstand slightly sideways landings far better than the sprung skid. I have been told by a number of other Olympia builders that the sprung arrangement tends to get ripped off in many less than perfect landings. Also, the full size Glider had silver painted fabric covers on both sides of the entire Springing gap arrangement, so my version doesn't look too different. Certainly, my experience so far with several dozen landings has been no issues at all.
Essentially, I replaced the springing gap with a tapered solid balsa insert a bit narrower than the skid at the bottom and faced this insert with close fitting thin ply side pieces to replicate the fabric covers. By the time I had glassed these in to the fuselage & painted them silver they don't look too bad in my opinion.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 20:22
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Peter: seems like a good idea to me, and I'm certainly not about to put scale fidelity above function!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2016, 22:07
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Cliff!
This morning I've been sorting out wire/tube sizes. They're slightly different over here. but after all, you only need something that will do the job...
And 'BA' nuts and bolts are interesting, too: sorting them into metric. I'm doubling up the starboard side formers with slightly thicker balsa than the originals: it'll certainly make the nose easier to do with: a bit more gluing area. Ordered an HK tow release (I've used these already, and reckon them to be strong enough).
Not sure what to use for the elevator pushrod: Goldenrod? carbon? Closed loop? Will also be reinforcing the centre formers considerably for wing stresses.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 09:05
by Peter Balcombe
Your fuselage looks very nice Greg. Keep up the good work.

I completely agree about wire & screw sizes. We get SWG wire in the UK & changed from BA sizes years ago, so all fixings tend to be metric.
I am pretty sure that I used 6mm solid carbon rod for the elevator pushrod, with small lengths of 2mm threaded end rod bound and epoxied into each end for servo/horn connections via a 2mm metal clevis. You need something which will go between the small rear former gaps. An equivalent tube would probably be just as good. It just needs to be stiff enough to resist bending when compressed along its length.
I also used HK tow releases.
See my build thread update regarding centre section former strengthening in the wing root area. I added ply doublers to the top half of the 3 wing area main formers to stengthen the wing mount area after mine sheared off from the main parts of each former.
I also a replaced the balsa fuselage root centre infill with ply and glassed the 'tween root rib' areas to make sure everything was firmly tied together & have had no further indication of any issues in this area.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Aug 2016, 23:53
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Peter!
Your advice is well taken. I will use a carbon rod for the elevator, and pull-pull for the rudder. I'm looking forward to that, as I've never done pull-pull before and I like the fiddly-looking nature of it!
I've just started to fit the second half formers and am realizing again how much making up I'll have to do to the profiles get the levels right. That's OK, though: I'm beginning to realize that a contemplative approach is required, at least for me - no end in sight, enjoy the journey. After all, when is it 'finished'? After the test flight? When it's passed on to the grandchild, or unconstituted in a heap of bits on the local slope? Who knows?
Might use some carbon on the centre formers: now there's an anachronism for you...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Aug 2016, 22:59
by Greg Smith
Peter, I was wondering if you knew roughly how much weight you finally had to add at the front end? I have cast and glued in my lead weight (in the noseblock) and have almost set up the tow release and servo.I've never cast in plaster of paris before: quite exciting. My last attempt at casting lead,was for an Elmira in 1980. I ended up with lead spattered on my face, but was luckily wearing glasses, so I was very careful this time: long-sleeved shirt, leather gloves, full face protection and tongs to hold the tin can! My hollowed out space in the noseblock is bigger than the front former, so I had to add a spacer to the back of the noseblock. Now the nose will be slightly too long!!!

I'm also interested in how you did your modified elevator connection; I've studied the photos but can't quite make it out. Why is it an improvement?

I've decided to build the fin and tailplane before going further so that I can really see what to do at the back end; I think I'll use a supported aluminium tube rather than carbon for the elevator pushrod.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Aug 2016, 23:40
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I don't know exactly how much total nose weight was added, but I did have to add some additional weight inside the fuselage to balance after casting some in the nose block. At a guess, I would think I added at least as much again as was in the nose block.

For the alternative elevator link arrangement, it does make for a much simpler rigging at the field as the tailplane can be simply slotted into place and the single fixing screwed into place, rather than trying to fit the clevis to the pushrod (or in my case, fit the clevis and insert the small screw instead of the clevis pin) as you are also trying to attach the tailplane.

The difference in the arrangement is that the elevator horn is fitted with a short piano wire cross pin in place of the normal clevis attachment hole.
The fuselage pivot was made from 3 pieces of 1/16" (1.5mm) epoxy board epoxied together into a 3/16" wide strip. The centre strip is cut short & a slot is cut down from the top in the outer pieces at the top to allow the elevator horn pin to slide down into the slot when the tailplane is positioned. (Note that the slot needs to be a good fit as any slop will result in elevator linkage slop).
The 3/16" pivot assembly is drilled across at the bottom end for a piano wire pivot pin, fixed to the lower fuselage below the elevator horn, thus allowing equal forward & backwards movement for elevator movement to minimise differential.
Thus with elevator servo in neutral position, the fuselage pivot should be near vertical & the tailplane elevator horn cross wire is easily slid down the slot in the pivot pin as the tailplane is positioned. Insert the tailplane securing screw & the job is done.
Hope this clarifies.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Aug 2016, 00:18
by Greg Smith
Thanks for the incredibly rapid reply, Peter: I'll study it later!
Best, Greg

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Aug 2016, 21:17
by Greg Smith
I see it: very clever! I'll use it. Something else to make sure of before sheeting the second fuselage side.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Aug 2016, 20:29
by Greg Smith
Quick question: does Cliff specify brass and dural horns and hinges for authenticity? I was thinking of using circuit board material instead... I have some beautiful material provided by the local Radio Shack fellow, who informed me it has an insulating value of c. 200,000 volts. Might come in useful when I hit those high-tension wires, I suppose.
The hinging looks very time-consuming. I'm wondering if people are tempted to use (sacrilege) ordinary hinging methods for large scale gliders?
Oh, I realized that we used to use balsa pushrods down a fuse, so that's what I'm doing for my rudder; very light and there's plenty of room. Mine is 3/8" squ. with a wire extension for the servo end, and a hard balsa 1/4" by 1/8" short extension to the elevator 'horn'. Sounds too flimsy, I know, but it's actually really strong push/pull!
What a pleasure to build a (for me) conventional structure. The tailplane has taken a couple of days so far. Can't get 1mm ply here, so I'll have to go with .8mm for the elevator TE. Think it will be OK.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Aug 2016, 20:53
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I used 1/16" epoxy pcb material on my Olympia horns & hinges and these were otherwise much as shown on the plan, with piano wire pins for all hinges. The epoxy sheet material wouldn't have been around when Cliff designed most of his range.

I used a pull-pull system for my rudder control. A pushrod should be fine, but make sure you have adequate room for it at the rear of the fuselage, particularly as the elevator pushrod will be in the same area. The gap between the rear formers gets a bit narrow under the tailplane.

We also use 0.8mm ply over here instead of 1mm. I am sure that is what I used.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Aug 2016, 21:56
by Greg Smith
I'm embarrassed: I meant 'elevator pushrod'! I'm using pull-pull for rudder as you suggested (as per Cliff), and I have reduced the size of the last section of elevator pushrod so there will be plenty of room. Sorry about that! Thanks for info about hinges etc.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Aug 2016, 22:16
by Peter Balcombe
No problem Greg :) :)
Just make sure that your elevator pushrod is stiff enough to resist bowing when in compression as you won't want to experience reduced up-elevator movement caused by aerodynamic loads when you are trying to pull out of a dive!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 05:49
by Greg Smith
Good point, Peter: I think I'll put some carbon on the surface and a couple of guides along the length. Working on the elevator: quite fiddly, as I'm having to extend the T.E. slots in the ribs. The plan is completely indistinct- because of poor printing- about what's happening around the L.H. end of the trim tab, (which I assume is non-functional?) Or perhaps it's not, and down elevator produces up trim?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 08:34
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
No, up elevator produces up trim tab movement.
Mine is fully operational & if you can get the fixed trim tab wire length correct, gives a good visual indication of elevator trim.
The trim tab wire is connected to a fixed horn on the top of the tailplane, passing through the trim tab to a horn on the bottom of the tab.
Hopefully, the photos below explain all.
One point to watch when covering is that it is quite easy to distort the trim tab housing area on the tailplane when shrinking the covering, so be watchful when doing this. (I had to have a couple of goes here!).
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 16:15
by Greg Smith
Ah, that's a great help, Peter: your plan is much clearer than mine, and with the additional photos I can see what to do. I wonder if you'll be able to consume all the pints I 'll owe you by the time I'm finished? Or do you like single malt? Thanks, again...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 16:23
by Barry_Cole
I am sure I should know, but what is he point of the trim working like that??

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 18:17
by Peter Balcombe
Barry,
I have asked Alan about trim tab operation on the full size, which does have a starboard trim tab operated by a cable connected to it's lower forward edge as on the Charlesworth plan.
However, I suspect the tab operating cable may be connected to a cockpit trim wheel on the full size, whereas the model plan implementation is merely a simple way of making the tab move rather than having it fixed.

The attached photo just shows what looks like a pitch trimmer on VV400 (far left centre).
For those wanting photo of an Oly spoiler lever, then see the 2nd photo.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Aug 2016, 19:10
by Greg Smith
Since the model version just increases slightly the normal action of the elevator, having it working is not for me, in terms of increasing the complexity unnecessarily, but hat's off to making it 'appear' to work. I say that because presumably its original function is to compensate during a particular flight for the slightly different weights of pilots,or flight condition, within a certain range, allowing a neutral condition with less workload for the pilot? Beyond that, I would imagine CG issues would necessitate some ballast? On the model, if it's fixed, and just moves with the elevator, I guess it will be fine.
I'm finding the elevator tricky; I didn't see the obvious: you have to make sure the trailing edge of the tailplane and the LE of the elevator match as your priority, and then build from there. Since they are not constant thickness across the span, this is crucial. The other thing I got wrong was the sheeting of
the tailplane; I'm going to have to fudge things a bit there with some strategic sanding.Signing off for today, and out of the shop: I'm starting to get impatient, and that's not the place to be! The impatience is not to finish the plane, but with the recalcitrance of materials and my own denseness in not seeing the relationship between parts which leads to good quality work!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Aug 2016, 00:01
by RobbieB
There seems to some confusion here as to the function of trim tabs, true Flettner tabs, servo tabs and anti-servo tabs.

Most aircraft will use the trim tab fitted to elevators to control the attitude and hence the speed of the aircraft in flight with zero load on the stick i.e. the tab is set to hold the elevator at a fixed position with no input from the pilot and zero load on the stick. The tab works in the opposite direction to that of the elevator i.e. to hold the elevator raised slightly the tab will move down so in effect, ‘flies’ the elevator – the opposite when the elevator is required to be held in a slightly down position – there being no load on the stick and will fly the aircraft at the required speed and attitude hands off – a new neutral position. Sometimes this is achieved with bias springs on the stick itself instead of a trim lever or wheel.

To the best of my knowledge this is how the trim tab on the Olly and most sailplanes work, not like an anti-servo tab as shown on Cliff’s plan. Set up like that it is putting increasing load on the elevator servo as the elevator deflection increases for no good reason.

On some aircraft, anti-servo tabs are desirable to input increasing feedback to the pilot with increasing control surface deflection.

A servo tab again does the opposite, it moves in such a way as to assist the pilot with control surface deflection – desirable on aircraft with heavy controls – the Skylark 3F aileron servo tabs spring to mind.

A true Flettner tab works in a somewhat different way. A small tab at the trailing edge of the control surface is the primary mover of the main control surface by virtue of its moment arm from the control surface pivot point. My experience with these little jobbies comes from way back in my sea going career where they were used on (some) big ships’ rudders when full away at sea steering a straight course, where only small deflections of the rudder where required. This was achieved by moving only the trim tab which then moved the rudder sufficiently to steer using considerably less energy in the process. This type was not common and I think has very much gone out of fashion nowadays – complicated and troublesome.

Hope this helps.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Aug 2016, 00:37
by Greg Smith
Fascinating, Robbie: thanks for the info. So it seems reasonable to have the tab non-functional, anyway. I think I was confusing the matter of having the CG in the right place in a full-size glider, depending on the weight of the pilot, and then using the trim tab to give the neutral trim you refer to. I imagine that this neutral trim would only work at a particular airspeed, but I'm guessing...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Aug 2016, 08:35
by RobbieB
Greg,
CG in full size will always vary depending upon the pilot’s weight but will be safe providing that weight is within the particular glider’s limits and that is always shown on the limitation placards posted in the cockpit. A particularly light pilot may need to have ballast weights fitted to fly safely.

The question of ‘neutral trim’ again can be confusing. It is usual to set the trim at ‘neutral’ – i.e. the trim lever set mid point, for launch. Then, once released the glider will be trimmed for whatever speed the pilot requires to fly hands off and that, of course, will determine the gliders attitude in the air.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 20:07
by Greg Smith
Well, I thought the elevator would be time-consuming, and I'm not there yet. Carving the LE has been challenging: and then I realised that the shrouds of 1/8" triangle stock which enclose the LE, glued to the TE of the tailplane, are only available at high shipping cost. Thought of a way to do it, though: cut 1/8" off a sheet of 1/8", then lightly mark two opposite edges of the square with a black felt tip. Next, carve and sound down to those lines - quite straightforward. I thought maybe the ink line would be indelible, but a light sand got rid of it. Haven't fitted them yet, and there will be some delicate work to reduce them in size towards the tip of the elevator. Funny how elevators always adopt a reflex (in plan view) towards the tips, away from the TE of the tailplane, in spite of being careful not to carve/sand away from the front of the elevator LE! Think I'm within limits, though. I hate having even slightly resistant control surfaces.
I have some good, pinned nylon hinges so I think I'm going to simplify a little and use those. The hinges will not be visible anyway, I don't think. I will post a picture when I'm done with the complete assembly.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 20:39
by Peter Balcombe
Well done Greg.
I was racking my brain for a minute trying to recall where the plan called up,1/8" triangular stock - then I realised you were talking about the elevator LE shroud support strips.
I made sure that my 1/64" skins protruded over the rear of the tailplane spar by 1/8", then did mine in a similar fashion to you. I glued balsa strips cut from sheet under the skin overhang, but I then took a more basic approach & just carefully ran a sharp scalpel along the strip (using the skin edge as one guide & the 1/8" strip thickness as the other) to make it close to a triangle. A quick sand with a bespoke sanding strip made from a length of spruce strip faced with sandpaper (complete with small gripping block glued approx. halfway along) enabled the humps to be removed.
By the time the elevator is in place then you won't see the difference.
I used a similar approach on the aileron shrouds.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 21:28
by Greg Smith
Oh, oh! I think I missed something, or couldn't see it on the plans (again). 1/64" skins? I don't have any: just a basswood TE. I'll go and look at the plan again. A skin would certainly make your method the way to go. Yes, there are times when this is a VERY frustrating process...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 21:47
by Peter Balcombe
Oops, Sorry Greg its my mistake!!
The 1/64" skins are only on the LE section, centre section & tips on the tailplane, whereas they go over the hinge shroud on the fin & ailerons.
So the balsa tailplane shrouds just fit/sanded flush with top/bottom of the tailplane TE & project 1/8" behind.
So, instead of using the shroud skin as a guide - use a marked line. (Cut slightly proud & sand back).
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 23:06
by Greg Smith
Phew! Thanks for the quick correction: I was just about to skin my tailplane with 1/64" ply (no, not really).
That's a really good tip about sanding back, though: I can use the 1/8" all the way across, but make it progressively prouder towards
the tip, then sand it back. Yes!!!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 Sep 2016, 22:55
by Greg Smith
Tailplane nearly there. I'll be cutting off the hinge extensions, putting in the LE shrouds. Not really happy with the work: it would be better next time, but not in this life! Does anybody know what that little piece is behind the tailplane horn? It looks like half Peter's elevator operating mechanism...

Only one of the pictures I tried to add showed as loaded. I got the message 'http error' each time I tried to add a picture.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 Sep 2016, 23:31
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I cannot work out quite what the posted photo is showing.
It looks as if there may be a hinged joint going vertically through centre of image with what looks to be one side of a plastic pinned hinge on the centre left, but cannot determine what I am really looking at overall.

How large are the images you are trying to attach? Most of mine are a couple of hundred KB, but I have loaded 1M or so. They usually work 2nd time, particularly if you do them one at a time. If you still have a problem, then it might be worth trying to email them to Robbie or Barry Cole to see if they can identify what the problem is.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Sep 2016, 00:12
by Greg Smith
Sorry about this. I managed to get this image of the tailplane hinge joint to load, but others which were required did not load, for no apparent reason. If I could get my pictures on to my PC rather than the Mac, it might work better, but I take the pictures with my iphone and then to my Photostream or e-mail. I don't have an e-mail program on my PC and don't really want one, because of all I've heard about viruses and so on. Going to an other program and then onwards from there is something I'll try again, but honestly, I'm almost allergic to the idiosyncrasies of this type of communication: unless it's easy and works every time, I don't want to do it. That's why I play acoustic guitar!
Cliff, I'll try your suggestion, but having to go through an intermediate step is a real pain.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Sep 2016, 03:22
by Greg Smith
Just testing a new method for pictures! Next I'll remember to reduce the size...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Sep 2016, 08:22
by Barry_Cole
These sent over by Greg.

Greg, Your last photo seems about the right size. (You and the glider)

I made these two a bit larger.

I use a free download called Phoxo, you can open the photos and re-size them (Press F2), I make the top setting 1000-1200 pixels, and that seems good. If the photos are upside down (Seems to be an I Pad problem, you can rotate them (Pick View, and rotate)

Then just save them

Hope that helps.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Sep 2016, 09:12
by Peter Balcombe
Many thanks Barry, that makes things much much clearer.
Greg, if the piece you mean is the rectangular section with a small hole at one end & a slot at the other, then this is one of the two pieces (hand numbered F1 & F2 on my attached plan photo) at the base of the fin assembly.
The hole is for the 12 gauge wire pin which slides into a tube epoxied into the fuselage immediately forward of the rearmost former F24 & the slot is for the 1/8" ply locking tongue (hand numbered as F10 on my plan).

If you haven't made the fin yet, then it is worth noting that I had to have two goes at making this as the first attempt gave me a fin where the rear base thickness was different from the fuselage fin base. I remade the fin with revised rib thicknesses to make it the same as the rear fuselage. Having said that, I did sheet the fin in 1/64" ply as for all other skinning, rather than 1/32" balsa as on the plan, principally because I had the ply to hand but not the 1/32" balsa.

Hopefully, the photo below of my plan section helps clarify the above.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Sep 2016, 19:07
by Greg Smith
Thank you, Peter and Barry: I'll read and digest, be very careful with my fin build and try to post more pictures. As always, hats off for the rapid response and useful advice.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Sep 2016, 17:30
by Greg Smith
Beautiful...thanks.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Sep 2016, 05:33
by Greg Smith
Peter do you have an idea of how much elevator movement is required? I'm making the elevator actuation mechanism like yours and I want to be sure that I've got enough,as I'm pretty much eyeballing things from your photo. I've made all the components, but will do a dry run as far as possible to ensure accuracy and easy movement, before final installation. Thanks!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Sep 2016, 18:13
by Peter Balcombe
Greg, just measured movement at the inner end of the elevator trailing edge & I have approximately +/- 1.5" mechanical travel available & I seem to have almost all of that movement available from the transmitter.
However, I doubt that I use very much of that during flying as far as I can recall - but may be useful in extremis!!
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Sep 2016, 18:44
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Peter: with that much movement in your set-up, I think I've got a bit to play with if mine isn't exactly the same. I'll post a picture when I've finished the mechanism. It has been interesting to construct the pieces and fiddle about with it!
On another topic, I just received from England a book I ordered recently: 'Spitfire In My Workshop' by David Glen. Inside is the most extraordinary model-making I've ever seen. David has some very wise comments about the psychology of doing good work, as well: albeit on a completely different level from mine! The volume was expensive (the most expensive book I've ever bought) but I'm sure you would be interested to check it out - a beautiful record of an eleven year modelling odyssey and a gorgeous aircraft.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Sep 2016, 18:46
by Greg Smith
Oh: I'm going to build the fin, then the fuselage base, just to be on the safe side about thickness!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Sep 2016, 19:31
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
The part of the fuselage base I meant in relation to the fin width was the rearmost part - behind the elevator hinge line.
The fuselage width here is set by the rearmost fuselage formers plus the skins, thus you can easily measure what that is/will be once you have formers on both sides of the fuselage.
The forward part of the fin base is fixed to the top of the tailplane and is made up once you have the fin as it needs to fair into the tailplane at the bottom, the fuselage at the front of the tailplane, and the fin at the rear. I started by building up a balsa block on top of the tailplane, getting the block height adjusted so that the fin sat down in place, getting the side view profile right (between front of fin & fuselage), then fair everything off in plan view and curve everything to final contours.
It is a bit of a process, but take it one step at a time & it will be ok.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Sep 2016, 00:25
by Greg Smith
Thank you, Peter.
I've been struggling a bit with the elevator actuator: it just hasn't wanted to work smoothly, but I'm getting there...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 15 Sep 2016, 00:49
by Greg Smith
I've built the fin, using the laser-cut fin post provided, but having to increase the depth of the ribs because I intend to reduce the thickness of the rudder LE a little and have it fit inside a shroud produced by skinning the whole fin (i.e. completely covering the fin with 1/16" balsa) and extending the skinning/ covering to make little 'wings' which will cover the LE of the rudder. One concern would be having sufficient rear fuselage width to accommodate this: I have enough: it's wider than shown on the plan, as it turns out. If you see what I mean, Peter, can you see any other drawbacks to this idea? At the LE of the fin, I'll just sand/fair the sheeting so that the LE will be standard thickness.This means the fin will be a little thicker than indicated, and the rudder a little narrower. Does one fibreglass the fin?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 15 Sep 2016, 09:08
by Peter Balcombe
Hi Greg,
That is a different approach - but if it works for you then go with it.
As far as fibre-glassing the fin is concerned, it depends what you are doing for finishing.
If finish is as per the fuselage then I advise doing the same on the fin.
I only applied Solartex on the wings and tailplane, painting a couple of coats of resin on the balsa upper tailplane fin fairing in order to seal and get a smooth finish to paint on.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 15 Sep 2016, 17:01
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Peter!
I'm engaged today in making sure the fin/fuselage/elevator are all square and 'flat', then on to finishing the rudder and hinging it. Then, tailplane/fin fairing and finish sheeting the fuse.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 04:19
by Greg Smith
Am making slow progress, due to scratching my head over the canopy: whether I'll have to make one, or whether it can be ordered. I also am not clear about where to cut for the canopy, so initially I'mm checking my ability to post pictures within the site limits. Not being a PC user, it's trial and lots of error, using a programme called 'Pix Resizer'. So I'll try to post something now, and if successful will post relevant pics. later.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 04:21
by Greg Smith
Yes! It has worked: I'll attempt more tomorrow.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 12:13
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Note that there are now two variants of the Oympia canopy:
1: The original Meise type with a more upright front;
2: The more modern sloping front canopy as I used.

However, as Cliff says, Barry can provide either of these.
When you say you are not sure where to cut, do you mean to get the upper part of the cockpit coaming on which the canopy itself sits?
If this is the case then I will look up the fuselage part references.

Build looks good from the photo posted earlier Greg. Keep up the good work.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 15:49
by Greg Smith
Thanks for the replies, you two!
I think I'm committed to the sloping front, like yours, Peter, which is fine: what I'm really concerned about is exact dimensions from, say, Sarik: that I have built accurately enough for an 'existing' canopy to fit... I'll get the pics up soon and, yes, Peter, the uncertainty is about the 'cut' lines for the canopy base/framing. I have not yet attached the front, half round, coaming or the rear canopy former (8C and 'canopy base front') thinking it might be best to get the canopy here and allow myself a bit of furtling space, um, 'making up' ? What do you call it when you fiddle about to make things work?
No hurry: in the meantime, I can finish the ply covering - almost done - and get started on a wing. The puzzle with the wings I can see already will be joiners. I'll need to decide on the system early on and can't find the box/tube system which Cliff suggests anywhere. I'm thinking of carbon tubes and rods (both 'tube', though: one inside the other, but it would be good to make the box style work...

I wrote (handwritten letter!) to the Ulster Gliding Club to try and contact the owner/restorer of their Olympia, but so far without result... A letter sent to my grand-nephew a while ago never arrived, so I wonder if the GPO/USPS can read handwriting still?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 18:21
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Don't worry too much about having to be accurate to ensure the canopy fits as this is quite flexible and can be trimmed from the oversized vacuum pulled moulding to fit. It is 'pulled' from acetate sheet approx 0.5mm thick, so is quite flexible once cut from the moulding base. These characteristics allow the same canopy moulding to be used on a number of different models as it is cut as necessary to fit each one. Have you used a vacuum pulled canopy moulding before?

To release the cockpit coaming, you will need to slit through the skins/fuselage structure on each side as follows:
1. Cut between formers 8A & 8C down towards the two parallel 1/8x1/8" spruce stringers, cutting through the upper of these stringers only.
2. Cut down between the two formers marked 6A at the front, towards the two parallel 1/8x1/8" stringers, again cutting through the upper stringer only.
3. Cut along each side between the two parallel stringers (severing F6-F8 in the process) to release the cockpit coaming section.
(I find a fine razor saw good for these cuts, but be careful that you find the correct gaps).

Note that the hoop of former 8C forms the rear of the canopy frame.
You will see from my build thread that I made up a laminated 'U' shaped stringer which I glued to the top of the coaming, thus giving a lip against which I could glue the canopy itself.

Fitting the canopy itself involves carefully marking & cutting down the supplied moulding in several stages to make sure you get a good fit, but without cutting off too much. I advise gluing the canopy with Canopy/Modellers glue as Cyano fumes will cause a bloom on the clear acetate. Canopy glue is a white liquid, but dries clear, so isn't that noticeable when dried.
By the way, one word used in this part of the world for making adjustments as you go is 'fettling', another is 'bodging'.

Once you have the canopy fitted and the wings able to be fitted, you will be able to sort out making the rear canopy fairing to fill the gaps between the canopy glazing and the angled section at the wing roots. However, one thing at a time!!
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 20:56
by RobbieB
Peter,

Are you sure Barry is using acetate now?

The vac forming plastic of choice was predominately PETG, a polyethylene - so easy to handle and thermo form but is notoriously difficult to glue as are many polyethylenes, welding usually being the choice here for joining. This was always the material Roly used at Sarik and I found Canopy glue really didn't give a good bond if any at all. Cyno does but you may have clouding problems and a brittle plastic at the end. I believe there are cynos available that are formulated to reduce or stop this clouding.

I found the best solution is to carefully rough up the glued area on the canopy to give a good key and use a good quality, slow setting epoxy, applying it sparingly and do a section at a time.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 22:09
by Greg Smith
As usual, great advice, Peter, and very clear. This will help me proceed with more confidence. I will order the canopy immediately and eyeball everything when it arrives before going further. your pictures in the thread will also be used! Thanks, as always for your time and very rapid reply. Greatly appreciated.
I note your comments, Robbie. Actually, although I have dealt with various canopies, I've no idea what they have been made of. I've always used canopy glue successfully, but appreciate your input about different plastic: I'll ask about the material and certainly do a test on a piece of scrap. I'm not in a hurry any more...
I guess that my picture was not over the size limit; good to know.Now I just have to repeat the lucky keystrokes which got it posted!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 22:16
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Robbie is correct about the canopy material. It will be PETG. I just couldn't think of the correct name at the time!!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2016, 22:49
by chris williams
Sorry to have to contradict Robbie, but I've been using Pacer canopy glue with PETG for years now without a problem. It's big advantage is that it dries clear, so any mistakes are harder to see... Having said that, I always mask the canopy inside and out before glueing and the same for painting

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 04 Nov 2016, 07:34
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
15x2mm steel blade & brass box material is stocked in the UK by Gliders Distribution for approx. £14 for a metre length of each.
As you only need just under half that for an Oly, (my joiner strip is 18" long) perhaps they could cut it in half to ease shipping.
If they cannot do that then I am sure we could get some and ship it to you.
Meanwhile, the attached photos show you where I extracted my coaming, fitted the lip & the finished canopy.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 04 Nov 2016, 08:47
by RobbieB
chris williams wrote:Sorry to have to contradict Robbie, but I've been using Pacer canopy glue with PETG for years now without a problem. It's big advantage is that it dries clear, so any mistakes are harder to see... Having said that, I always mask the canopy inside and out before glueing and the same for painting
Yes, it's Pacer I've always used in the past on other canopy materials with great success but it was only with PETG material I found the problem. When I spoke to Roly's immediate successor (Derek, I think it was) he said to the best of his knowledge there wasn't a suitable adhesive for these materials, it being a polyethylene. That wasn't an issue for him as the bulk of his output was going to clients who didn't require any gluing process - typically moulded product box inserts and the like.

You may get some initial appearance of adhesion but in my experience it takes very little effort to pull it off. The problems relating to gluing the stuff are well documented on the net - that's why I eventually resorted to using epoxy, the last thing I wanted to use; and that is not really 'gluing' in the real sense, just keying.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 04 Nov 2016, 09:17
by chris williams
I guess I must be lucky then, Robbie... ;) When I had to replace the Petrel canopy when it fell off it's perch, the old one put up quite fight!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 04 Nov 2016, 11:49
by RobbieB
Chris,

I would like to go back and have another look at this as using epoxy for this process is not my idea of a fun day out. I'll play around with a few test pieces and see what happens.

I will report back; time to give Greg his thread back.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 04 Nov 2016, 17:07
by Greg Smith
I'm glad my thread has led to a little discussion that might be of value beyond my selfish puzzlements about the Oly. Great pictures, Peter: and advice. Thanks for both. I'll get on to Sarik soon, and report back, but it will probably be a while. Thanks for info about the wing joiners: this will also be followed up on.
Best to all: Greg.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 09 Nov 2016, 21:08
by RobbieB
DSC_0457.JPG
Ok, reporting back as promised.

In the photo above the top piece of ply had two separate pieces of PETG canopy material glued to it. On the left was the piece that used cyno and in trying to separate the material from the ply the joint would not give way - it just destroyed the ply - the bits coming away still stuck to the canopy. Predictably of course, the cyno had made the material very brittle.

On the right, the PETG was glued with Pacer Canopy Glue and unfortunately came off very, very easily. The remnants of the glue can still be seen stuck to the ply.

The lower piece was glued with slow set epoxy; I haven't been able to get them apart yet.

All samples were roughened and hard clamped for 24 hours.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 00:34
by Greg Smith
So I wonder if the canopy could be masked sufficiently to stop cyano blooming it. Or perhaps thin the epoxy...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 07:43
by john greenfield
I have found that Pacer (Zap) canopy glue has a tendency to separate out in the bottle if left on the shelf for some time. I always make sure it is fully mixed by giving it a shake for some time and then unscrewing the lid and checking with a stick to make sure it is fully mixed and has no thick goo in the bottom of the bottle. Using it this way I have strong bonds every time that are difficult to break.

AEB

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 08:08
by B Sharp
I tend to use "Evostik" contact adhesive and have never had a failure. Having said that you have to be sooooooooo careful when attaching the canopy to the frame as it is a "one chance" operation.
I appy glue to both surfaces and allow to dry. I have the centre line of the canopy and the framed marked up for alignment. I cover the sides of the frame with grease proof paper or suchlike to stop them coming into contact with the canopy. I then attach the centre line points first then slide out the greaseproof paper masks to give final full contact.Tricky but it works for me!
Brian, :)

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 08:10
by RobbieB
Greg,

I have used thick cyno for canopy gluing in the past, not knowing any better. If you can get at the inside where any blooming might occur it is easily polished off if not left on too long. The problem with cyno is, as I've stated, is how brittle it makes the canopy material, a heavy arrival can shatter it.

John,

I know this must be me as so many people don't seem to have a problem. My bottle of Pacer does sit in the cupboard for a long time (a very long time to be honest) and I did shake it up before use although not for long. I think perhaps a top off and give it a stir.

Will report back again.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 19:17
by RobbieB
Right,

Gave the Pacer a good stir and shake-up this morning - glued on another test piece, cleaned and roughed up as before - stuck really well this time.

Mr Greenfield - I owe you one.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Nov 2016, 22:16
by Greg Smith
Very glad to hear the news: although it doesn't quite make up for another recent item in the news....

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 22:16
by Greg Smith
I ordered the canopy early Nov. but it hasn't arrived yet. Gliders Distribution quoted me a very reasonable 11.63 sterling for the wing joiner, but failed initially to mention 24.00 poundes postage, so I will have to rethink the wing joiner... So I've come to a halt at present. Want to finish the fuse and tail up to painting before starting on the wings, though.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 May 2017, 19:53
by Greg Smith
Someone may have been wondering, or not, why there has been no progress made... Well, first, it's been a banner snow year here, and second, I got nowhere with the wing joiner problem. The last round was asking Gliders Distribution to send a joiner to Peter, who would then send it to me. I got no further with this when they didn't reply to my e-mail. Of course, I got the suspicion that they didn't want me circumventing their postal fee, but maybe I'm being overly sensitive and they just lost the e-mail. The problem was that the joiner was about 13 pounds, and the postage double that. Didn't seem right, but I can't find anything here that would be a simple substitute. Ah well, there is still more work to do before it's critical. The canopy arrived and I'll have another trimming session soon. It's exciting nipping away at such a critical object which came all the way from Sarik. Oh, and my wife bought me a Libelle DLG for Christmas which is still in the box. Best to all!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 May 2017, 20:26
by Greg Smith
Cliff, I can't thank you enough. Please let me know what your expenditure/address is and I will forward it immediately: I have a Barclay's account in England, so I could send a cheque post haste. Plus, of course, you know exactly what to order. It doesn't get better. Very Best, Greg.

Is there a record for speed of reply? Amazing.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 May 2017, 08:39
by chris williams
Don't forget, today's flat steel joiner is 1mm wider that specified in older plans (ie: 14-15mm)

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 May 2017, 22:43
by chris williams
I was thinking more along the lines that the old wing joiners could be a tight fit in some designs, so it's worth checking to see what small mods might be needed to get the new ones to fit

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 May 2017, 03:14
by Greg Smith
With the wings being built from scratch, I'm thinking I can make sure of things as I go along.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 04:55
by Greg Smith
Just testing a new sizing program. Old picture: no replies needed, unless it's still taking up too much space!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 05:39
by Barry_Cole
Look good Greg

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 15:32
by Greg Smith
Thanks so much, guys: I need the encouragement to get started again. I'm very apprehensive about ruining my reasonably good building with the fibreglassing, which I've never done on a compound shape where I wanted it to be immaculate. Still, we learn by doing, right?
I might do a wing next, since Cliff has been so good as to get me the wing joiner and cut it for me. This will require bench reorganization to make room for such a big structure. I'm glad the picture worked: now I just have to remember how I did it!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 17:40
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
The fibreglassing is not as bad as it sounds. It's a bit like aerotowing - much easier than you might think once you try it.
I suggest that (if you aren't already intending to go down this route) you use very lightweight cloth & only try to cover one half of the Fuz. at a time. You will find that the lightweight cloth can be smoothed to follow most of the compound curves using a brush. Aim to go over the top & bottom centreline on the first side. Choose a low viscosity epoxy mix, in a warm environment to help minimise viscosity & a good tip is to apply the epoxy with a 2" wide foam roller. I found that I could lay the cloth on dry & then just apply the resin with the foam roller - starting in the centre & carefully working outwards until over the top & bottom centreline. It is easy to see when the cloth has wetted out and the roller will press the cloth onto the skins.
Just leave any excess overlap cloth dry if necessary - as long as the wetted out cloth is in contact with the skins and goes over the centrelines.
Leave the epoxy to partially cure before trimming off the majority of the excess cloth with a sharp knife. Then leave to fully cure before sanding off the remainder & feathering the edges.
Repeat the process with the second side before feathering its edges into the first side.
If necessary, apply glass to any additional areas which may have been missed.
Give the overall glassed fuselage a sand to remove any pimples etc and then you can apply a further coat of resin to each side to fill the glass weave.
Sand with 320 grit, working up to 600 used wet to achieve a smooth surface for paint application.
The above process was used on my Olympia builds and I am pretty sure there were some build photos of these steps on the original build thread.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 19:06
by Greg Smith
Generous of you as always, Peter: thank you.
I will read and reread your advice before starting.
Perhaps unconventionally, I am going to try some Minwax floor treatment/covering rather than resin. I have used this successfully before on ply, but it doesn't work on balsa, as I discovered trying to cover the fin! Because it's water-based, there are almost no fumes and clean up is easy: but it made the balsa warp... I used it on the cockpit coaming (ply, of course) and it looks just like resin, and sets really hard. It's slow to go off, so easy to use. I wonder what your equivalent is in the UK? Everything you have advised will be equally applicable to Minwax. I will also experiment with a slightly larger area before going on to the actual fuse. Will report back, hopefully with a picture or two in due course!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 20:22
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I posted some missing pictures & additional build info for my original build in the Cliff Charlesworth Olympia 2b Update build thread further down the build thread list.

However, a couple of relevant photos are attached.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Jul 2017, 20:27
by Greg Smith
Thanks for your trouble, Peter: I have all the other photos organized!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jul 2017, 21:31
by Greg Smith
My PM doesn't seem to be working properly, so I'm asking Cliff here if he received payment in the hope that he;'ll see this message.
The PM is seen in the outbox, but not in the 'sent' list. The last message in the 'sent' box is from June, and I have sent several since then...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 11 Aug 2017, 19:35
by Greg Smith
I was passing by the workbench and was seized by the determination that often leads to a rushed job, but went ahead anyway, bolstered by the advice I've received here. Started to glass the fuse! Yes, it seems to be easier than I expected, but I've done the back half first...
One little thing that worked well was to push down little recalcitrant bits at corners with some thin superglue and a plastic-wrapped finger.
The other thing I discovered (on doing the second side) was that if I brushed along the middle of the fuse first, in a thin line, it laid out the glass nicely and prevented wrinkles: which are generally not a problem in any case, but this worked well. My finish will certainly not be concours, but I have reached a possibly more healthy attitude( at least, for my sanity) that it will be good enough at five feet away! The Minwax (wood floor finishing treatment, thick milky texture) works well, with water cleanup and few fumes, as a bonus. New picture strategy: will it work? I-phone sent to my gmail on PC, drag to desktop. drag to 'attachments'. Hoping. Oh: it turned it upside down. It was the right way up on the desktop! Oh well, it's not a question picture anyway. Do better next time!
IMG_1423.JPG
Fred.JPG
Well, there you are I made a right way up one. Took 3 goes, but I won in the end.
I left the upside down one for Rossco and his friends.

BC...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 11 Aug 2017, 21:15
by Greg Smith
Upside-down on desktop: will it reverse when posted?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 11 Aug 2017, 21:17
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Barry: I just saw your correction. No, it didn't reverse when I deliberately posted it the wrong way up: weird. Still, at least the rest of the process is easier. Now if I could just de-sensitize my keyboard keys a bit, there's be fewer typos to correct.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Oct 2017, 23:02
by Greg Smith
Well, no progress for a while, but I finally finished glassing the fuselage and am currently using my Optivisor to find imperfections and fix them with Bondo spot filling putty in very small amounts. The result looks hideous, but will look much better with a coat of primer on top.I got some little bubbles forming occasionally under the glass on one one particular panel. A bit mysterious... Anyway, I was glad to realize that the fibreglass is not truly structural, and by either gluing these down with CA or scraping them off and using Bondo, I would be able to retrieve the possibility of the finish I'm after. I think at first I'm going to get a color-matched pint from a local household paint store and see how that goes on over the primer on a test sample, then go from there. I'm very happy with the way that the Minwax water-based floor covering toughens the glass, cleans up easily, and seems to adhere to the Bondo. If I brush a layer on to the sanded Bondo, it seems to create a good surface, but time will tell, especially if bits start falling out of the fuse. over the next few months. The nose has been the trickiest, since the glass doesn't want to wrap around and stick nicely: perhaps resin would work better there.
So I'm almost ready to start on a wing. I like the functioning skid so much that I'm going to try that first: I can always make it rigid later if/when it gets crushed! And I have to finish fitting the canopy, a job which I dislike, as you have to be super accurate, I only have one canopy, and there's no making good if I cut it too deeply. In addition, the canopy adhesive has to adhere well all the way round first go, so it will need some careful clamping. I might protect the inside of the cockpit rim with some blue tape.
I had a thought about the spar, which is probably absurdly obvious: construct it flat on the board, with the center section (fuse insert) 'level' and then I can get the dihedral perfect, building the wing blade box and then the spar 'flat'. It seems it would be more tricky to construct it in the orientation it finally has in the plane. Perhaps this is the way everyone does it anyway? I wonder if anyone sees what I'm getting at? Anyway, I shall proceed thoughtfully. Resolve to put one or two more pictures, but in spit of a few hours' work, it doesn't look much different.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 05:50
by Greg Smith
Tail feathers.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 05:55
by Greg Smith
Canopy glued at last.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 05:57
by Greg Smith
Canopy pic perhaps?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 06:00
by Greg Smith
Canopy pic perhaps? No: I managed to get one picture in, but following the same procedure, the others wouldn't work. And I got a message saying that
there is an 'SSL error' and that scale soaring can't provide a secure connection. It's beyond me...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Oct 2017, 23:58
by Greg Smith
Not a complaint, Cliff: because of the problems I've had before from not understanding the system, I just wanted to let you know what's happening. Many thanks for your efforts.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Oct 2017, 16:41
by Greg Smith
Different method: hope it works!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Oct 2017, 16:43
by Greg Smith
No login problem., but pics still won't work. I'm following instructions exactly, but they just don't show up in the box.
Will explain in more detail later. Ah: I've got it: they are too big. I clicked on the little exclamation triangle...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Oct 2017, 16:59
by Barry_Cole
Greg,
If you have a problem with uploading, just send them to me:-

modelgliding@aol.com

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Oct 2017, 20:47
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Barry! I need to reduce the size of my images and they should post. Watch this space!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Oct 2017, 22:34
by Greg Smith
Trying a new way for a picture...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 10 Oct 2017, 22:40
by Greg Smith
Fitting the canopy!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Oct 2017, 02:15
by Greg Smith
So I've started on the wings. I'm trying to construct the main spars accurately. The lines on the plans are not perfectly straight,so I'm using steel straight edges rather than the plan. The spruce spar parts are required to be tapered, over a distance of 36 inches, by about 1/16" top and bottom. How could this be achieved accurately, or is accuracy not that important? I really can't imagine producing such a shallow slope accurately with hand tools! Added to which, the spruce itself is, naturally , not perfectly straight. Can the taper be approximate, i.e. the best I can do, without serious result? On my usual models, I would just push the spar into the existing rib slots,having attached the ribs at TE and LE, so making the spar first is new for me...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Oct 2017, 02:22
by Greg Smith
OK, I've looked at Peter's method again: build the ribs over the lower spruce spars: much more conventional and manageable, I think?Am I right that this is not as on the plan? You fit the box sides of the spar box (balsa) after the ribs are in place, so the front of the box is in separate pieces of balsa, and the back in larger ones. This is difficult to describe! The tapering question still stands, though. How do you do it?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Oct 2017, 09:18
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
You are correct in thinking that my way of building the wing (ribs added onto lower spar) is different from the Cliff Charlesworth plan.
Cliff liked building up a complete spar assembly first, then added front & rear sections of each rib to the spar assembly.
(Obviously, any spanwise wing taper has to be built into the spar assembly in addition to any chord wise thickness taper).
I like keeping the ribs in one piece to preserve the wing section profiles.

I cannot remember now if my laser cut ribs from Cliff Evans had building tabs on them at the start (I am pretty sure they did not), but otherwise I would have built up the whole assembly onto the lower spar over the plan, with the lower spar sitting on thin spacers as neccesary to allow the rib notches to sit fully onto the spar, and a TE tapered balsa wedge to give the specified washout on the outboard section as shown on the plan. The lowest part of each rib sat on the building board and the TE sat on the building board or tapered wedge.
The wing thickness taper is then defined by the steadily reducing wing rib height towards the tip & the top spar follows this taper when put in place. The overall shape is then set in place by adding the spar webbing & then the D box skins in due course.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Oct 2017, 22:35
by Greg Smith
Thank you, Peter: your explanation is perfectly clear, and I'm going to follow the same procedure. I still don't see how to make an accurate cut for the taper of the spars: I'll just have to hack and sand, I suppose. If the wing slots have to be adjusted as I go along, then so be it.I know the main thing is to get the ribs fitting the LE and TE properly, although I have occasionally used gussets when they are too short (Dept. pf embarrassing admissions). I noticed on the plans that the wing joiner box is a different length in plan and side view: 8.5" side view, 8.75" on plan view...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Oct 2017, 14:55
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Just use the plan to get the correct angle for the wing joiner boxes.
I used the plan to cut a 1/8” ply core with joiner box cutout - height tapering as per plan for distance between top & bottom spars, length to allow joiner box to reach from root side of rib R4 to at least flush with outside of root rib - then face the core each side with 1/16” ply.
Epoxy the 3 ply pieces together with brass tube inside to get a solid joiner box assembly with correct dihedral angle, which can then be epoxied into the slot left above lower spar after you have carefully removed the rib sections out to (but not including R4).
It is all made a bit easier if you temporarily dry insert a length of spar material in the upper spar slots and then epoxy ply front and rear spar webbing in place out to R4 (glued only to lower spar and ribs. (Dry fitted top spar is only being used as a spacer for the webbing pieces)
Then when the temporary top spar is removed, you can remove the rib sections with a razor saw to leave a spar-width channel into which you should be able to slide the prepared joiner assembly. You will probably need to clean out the channel/sand the joiner assemblyto get it to slide in without stressing the wing assembly.
Make sure the height is ok for to allow the top spar to sit down in its slot, then epoxy the joiner assembly into place, adding the top spar at the same time.
N.B Make sure that you put the joiner assembly in with thedihedrl going the right way!!
I always have a steel joiner strip inserted during this process to (a) give something to help push the joiner assembly all the way home & (b) to check that the outer end of the joiner is ABOVE wing end rather than BELOW. This can be removed once joiner assembly is in place, prior to putting the top spar on.

I did a brief explanation of my wing joiner technique somewhere on the forum - possibly on another (1/5 scale Dart?) build thread.
Hope this helps.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 31 Oct 2017, 15:06
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Look in my Oly 2b Update build thread (Dec 2015) post where I show a couple of photos of a wing ready to have the joiner assembly added.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Nov 2017, 20:42
by Greg Smith
Peter, once more thank you for your copious and helpful reply: I am printing out your advice and keeping it by me! That, together with the pictures you have already posted, should see me through. Previously, even on scratch-built projects, I have used instructions along the lines of 'do this, then that...' as in RCM&E, for example.' While this is more secure feeling, it probably is not as rewarding as having to work things out to the degree I have had to with this model.
I suppose it's possible that building a prototype might in some ways be easier, because there are no 'mistakes'. Hmmm.
It is remarkable to me still that I can get such good advice so quickly, and makes me aware of my slow pace (especially compared with other posters). Too many interests. Best.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 16:57
by Greg Smith
I'm looking at the wing T.E. We only have 1/16" or 1/32' ply available here, so I'm wondering which I should use. 1/32 is .8mm and 1/16 is 1.5mm according to my calipers. The problem is, of course, that those nicely burned 1mm slots in the ribs are too sloppy or not big enough! I'm thinking I'll have to go with the 1/32, but it's worrying, as it's more flexible than 1mm would be, and the glue will not adhere on both sides of the slot (once the additional balsa is added, that shouldn't matter, though). I'm cursing that the U.S. is still not metric. Did you know that on our maps, the spot heights are in metres, and the contour interval is 40 feet?!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 18:31
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Don’t worry about 1mm ply as we don’t have it over here either.
I have used 1/32” ply (0.8mm). I am pretty sure that Cliff Charlesworth would have assumed 1/32” and am not sure why he would need to put 1mm on his drawing.

Note that the thin ply is prone to be a bit wavy along its length, so I suggest putting a 1/16” balsa spacer underneath the ply strip between each rib (as per the lower part of the balsa/ply/balsa sandwich as this will maintain the ply at a constant height above the building board (& flat) along its length until after you have glued on the upper balsa strips.
The upper balsa strips will also better secure the TE to the ribs as you go.

We re not fully metric over here & have a mish-mash of old with new (pints, gallons etc.)
Our wood supplies are still in imperial fractions. Some things have gone metric but others have not.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 20:35
by Barry_Cole
Our wood supplies are still in imperial fractions. Some things have gone metric but others have not.

I always thought of it as going metric, but with imperial units.

:? :? :? :?

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 21:58
by Greg Smith
Thanks for the reassurance, Peter: and a very good tip about the 1/16” spacers at the T.E. I’m much happier now. Pity the ribs aren’t cut for the 1/32: this would also leave more wood at the end of the rib.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 18:41
by Greg Smith
A couple of questions.
1) Can I build the ailerons separately from the rest of the wing: understanding the need for a good fit, of course.
2) Is the washout necessary completely 'in' the aileron, or is there also a little bit in the main wing itself? The reason I'm asking is that I feel it would be easier for me to treat the aileron as a separate structure and build the washout (only 5mm) into it as I build it. Any reason not to?

Thank you!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 21:58
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I built both Olympia’s with the aileron as part of the wing & only cut the aileron out once the build was pretty much complete.
The washout goes from inboard end of aileron (or thereabouts) to the tip, so you need to make sure that the tip ribs have required washout angle anyway.
I found it easy enough to build the complete wing, with a 1/4” balsa (or similar) wedge of the required length (point X to tip I think) - this tapering from 5mm to nothing along its length.
Position the wedge at the TE & just build the wing normally.
This will make sure that the correct wing profile is maintained and will also be exactly the same on each wing.

It may well be possible to build the ailerons separately but I have no experience of ever having done this on any plane I have built.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 22:40
by Greg Smith
Spars laid out on new extended work bench.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 22:43
by Greg Smith
Carbon reinforced spar joins.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 22:48
by Greg Smith
Point taken, Peter.
My reason was that since the washout line is completely within the aileron, it would be possible and more manageable, to make the smaller structure of the aileron, but I can see that the wing ribs also need a tiny amount of angle, so not a good idea. I'll follow your method.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 17:45
by Greg Smith
So I've started to lay out the wing ribs: no gluing quite yet. Nice thing about building this model is that because I'm in no hurry, I'm actually thinking ahead a bit and not rushing into mistakes or bad workmanship just to get things done. A rare luxury! If someone in the next generation completes the model, so be it.The only reason I do want to finish is to clear the building board for the next exciting project, but since I haven't decided what that will be (apart from a DLG Libelle, which could be done in the clear space still existing) I'm taking my time. Case in point: since the ribs are not perfectly slotted and don't quite line up along the plan, which end of the rib is the most important? I decided it's the T.E., since a short rib at the L.E. is much easier to correct. I'm also taking the time to make sure that every rib is right on the line, and that the spar slots are deep enough. In the past, I've often removed a wing from the board to see the spar protruding from the rib profile... Horrible sanding is then required, destroying the perfection of the longtitudinal profile! Still flies, though. Anyway, nothing but my best is good enough for this model. Probably spoil it all with the finishing? Couldn't have got this far without the expertise of gentlemen on this site, though.Oh, Peter, I've found that I had to pack up the rear spar by 1/16", but the rib sits on the main spar quite nicely. My main spar shaping leaves something to be desired, though. I thought of a solution to the perfect taper problem, but I doubt I'll do it: two 48" straight edged, drilled for compression bolts, spar sandwiched between, with the cuttable/sandable portion protruding above the metal edges. I wonder if anyone has done this?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 17:47
by Greg Smith
Is it possible to go back and edit one's post? I noticed I wrote 'edged' not 'edges'.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 17:56
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Yes, although it appears only to be possible until someone has replied to the post - but I am sure an administrator can then sort it upon request.
Just click on the ‘edit’ (pencil?) symbol in top right of your post & you can edit & repost.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 18:00
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Peter! I just added this...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 18:44
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Sorry, but don’t understand your proposed solution to the spar taper problem. Perhaps a photo would clarify.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 21:25
by Greg Smith
Oh- it's just an idea, Peter: I haven't made it (yet). So, I have a very substantial Starrett 48" straight edge. About 12 dollars from Amazon. If I bought another, I could put them back to back, with two or three bolts through both, with wingnuts for tightening them together. I would put along one edge a piece of wood of the thickness of the spar to be tapered, and along the other edge the spar itself: in effect, making an impromptu vice. The spar would protrude to the required degree of taper, then I would sand off the exposed edge. What would remain between the straight edges would be the shaped spar. Hope this makes sense. I'm persuading myself I might make one for the second wing... Any artificial aid which will improve my accuracy is welcome, but there's a limit to the amount of trouble I'll go to, as well!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 21:50
by Peter Balcombe
Ok Greg I understand now.
Sounds as if it may work if you can set it up ok.
To be honest, as I tend to taper spars on only one side (keeping the other edge flat as produced), I just calculate the required thicknesses at a number of points along the strip, mark these points, then steadily plane/sand away using a David plane/Permagrit block until the thickness at each point is as close as possible to that required when measured using a digital calliper.
If I can get each point within a 0.1mm then I am happy.

If tapering a spar depth, then I will only taper what will be the inner surface, then the outer one will always be flat.
If tapering a spar in width then I tend to taper the opposite side to that which will be against the spar web.
That way, the majority of the mating surfaces will tend to be flat and square.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 12 Nov 2017, 22:30
by Greg Smith
Makes sense. I used your Permagrit method and then a long sanding bar, but I wasn't too happy with the waviness which resulted: lack of skill/practice, I expect. One spar also took a long time.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 08:36
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I use the razor (David type) plane to remove most of the material & then finish off with the coarse/fine sanding blocks.
A pencil line along the spar helps tell when close enough to start checking measurements.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 15:04
by RobbieB
Greg,

It will be very helpful to support the spruce spar flange with scrap block/ply when you are planing it as show in the photo below making sure the blocks diminish in depth below that of the spar as you progress out to the tip.

It is also worth mentioning that in full size practice it was unusual to reduce the flanges thickness out towards the tip, only the width. Not in every case but usually.
m100_spar.JPG

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 16:00
by Peter Balcombe
Good idea about the blocks Robbie. It will also help keep the spar at right angles to the bench whilst shaping.

In my model build experience it is often necessary on woodies to reduce the spar in thickness near the tip as otherwise the 2 spar thickness would be greater than the available rib height :?
Obviously much easier to build if you don’t need to reduce thickness though.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 23:26
by RobbieB
Peter Balcombe wrote: 13 Nov 2017, 16:00 Good idea about the blocks Robbie. It will also help keep the spar at right angles to the bench whilst shaping.

In my model build experience it is often necessary on woodies to reduce the spar in thickness near the tip as otherwise the 2 spar thickness would be greater than the available rib height :?
Obviously much easier to build if you don’t need to reduce thickness though.
Quite right Peter and sometimes it is necessary to remove a lot of material if it's a thickish spar or the balsa remaining on the tip ribs is so thin it makes them very vulnerable to damage during construction.

I have always built my spars up in my scale models (Cliff Charleswoth converted to that method a long time ago) so that's not a problem.

m100_full_spar.JPG

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 03:53
by Greg Smith
Very nice work, Robbie: I'll consider doing the other wing like this, if only for the different experience. I had no luck with my razor plane because I couldn't see how to support the spar adequately.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Nov 2017, 22:08
by Greg Smith
First: perhaps a silly question: have I mislaid the plan for the right wing, or do I just 'reverse' the left and 'build it on the back?
I have my false LE and TE done, and am just opening up the slots for the rear top spar, making sure that the priority is to have a vertical front aileron surface. I actually completed the tip pretty much, though this wasn't necessary at this stage.The plywood tip pattern wasn't in my precuts, so I traced the pattern off the plan, transferred that to card and then to ply. Still not very accurate, with some fiddling about to do. Ah well, it doesn't affect the strength or the function, and it will all be covered up. As I'm working, I'm listening to some beautiful Handel orchestral/vocal music, and apart from being a bit Christmasy, it helps me slow down and focus.
I don't understand 1/4" X1/8" diagonals at the wing root end. On the plan it looks as if they're continuous pieces, but there are no slots for them in the ribs? Confirmation of the cuts necessary (?) would be very helpful.
Next job: trailing edge top balsa filling, and make up the ply joiner box. Logically, I would make two at once, but my patience might not extend that far. Moral stamina needed: ah, how this process exposes the character weaknesses: like a long, but sedentary, mountain climb.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Nov 2017, 00:03
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Cliff: I'm hoping Peter will reply to my question about the diagonals. Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year (given that you have sent them already, as sitemaster?)

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Nov 2017, 03:24
by Peter Balcombe
Hi Greg, sorry for delay in response but am currently in a different time zone & have been away from WiFi all day.

Yes, the diagonals are needed & yes they are continuous (they provide edge supports for the top & bottom skins, the edges of which which follow this line from the main spar back to the intersection with the 2nd or 3rd? rib until they follow that to the TE from memory).
Thus the whole of the space between the root & 2nd or 3rd? rib is skinned top & bottom.
Unfortunately the diagonal spar slots have been missed from Cliff Charlesworth’s original rib profile sections, so I cut the slots in situ after pencil marking each side of a suitably placed spruce strip.
I forgot to feedback the omission to Cliff, but it will be easy enough to take the edge positions from the plan & amend the relevant rib cutting outlines.

I traced the wing drawing lines onto the rear of my wing drawing (taping the sheet onto a patio door glass works) in order to get a build plan for the 2nd wing.
Cliff’s suggestion should also work, although maybe slightly messier/smellier?

Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 Dec 2017, 04:54
by Greg Smith
My goodness, Peter, no need to apologize! Your help is always so timely: and crucial here, as well, because the diagonals were puzzling. My ribs are all in place, and glued to the TE and false LE. I'm surprised how stable they are, so I should be able to cut the missing slots reasonably well. I have also glued top and bottom subsidiary spars and the lower main spar. So I'm ready to construct a spar joiner box and a spoiler. Pretty exciting. Actually, I might do the upper TE reinforcement pieces first.
I think one of the 'stresses' of this build has been the fear of doing something in the wrong order, and then having to start over, or hack away to correct the mistake, as virtually everything else I've built has been both less complex, and has also come with a numbered order of operations: not that these are always in the best order, of course! Best Wishes: Greg.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Dec 2017, 04:03
by Greg Smith
Well, I have studied the controversy over the proper arrangement of the airbrakes/spoilers, and cannot finally work out what is the correct orientation. nor can I find a final, authoritative picture to go by. From what I can gather, the orientation on Cliff's plan is correct? What I would call the 'angled' brake goes on top (I'm calling the angled brake the blade with a 45 degree slope on it, as opposed to all the others, which are ninety.)and when the brake is retracted, this angled end goes inboard. Am I right? The distance on my plan between ribs 9 and 13 is 310mm exactly, so I'm thinking that if I constructed the brake to Peter's size, it would fit easily and then be 'blocked in' a bit?The 1/8" balsa brake box sides are only 284mm in my 'kit'. Does this matter? My brain hurts...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Dec 2017, 10:15
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
You will see from my original + update threads that I had difficulty understanding how the brake assemblies shown on the plan worked - although the sizes were ok as far as I remember.
I finally realised that they needed to open the other way around as per the full size.
The link provided by Cliff should get you to the required info. Otherwise please come back to me.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 07 Dec 2017, 04:21
by Greg Smith
Now I see; I had looked at Peter's pictures and still couldn't be sure. The lower blade has the diagonal, which is the end closest to the fuselage, and when the servo pulls on the actuating 'bellcrank', it moves towards the fuselage to close, while the upper blade moves away from the fuse to close.The blade parts are mislabelled on my laser cut parts. Thanks, guys!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 21:56
by Greg Smith
The first wing is going quite well. I overdrilled the holes in the spoiler box, so had to remove the ply doublers and start again. As often, I was schooled in my reaction to this silly mistake by the commentary of David Glen in his superb book 'Spitfire on my Workbench'. No hurry... if you're in the wrong state of mind, leave it alone and do something else. Certain members of this fine site must be much more advanced spirits (no sarcasm there) because they can build quickly: perhaps they make fewer mistakes, as well? Anyway, to save the original spoiler box sides I cut out little squares to receive a new piece of 1/8" ply which I could then drill properly. I'm glad to say that the new fit for the axles is tight, and a little more robust than the originals.

QUESTION: hopefully, the last about the wing build, but I doubt it. I noticed that Cliff says to cover the ribs aft of the ply sheeting with cap strips of 1mm ply, 1/8" wide. I don't think the ply would have any structural purpose: couldn't I just use hard balsa? I don't understand what happens at the TE: do you have to recess the strip into the end of each rib, or am I missing something? Are the aileron ribs covered in a similar way? Please help if possible: I can't really see what's going on in Peter's excellent photos.

I'm eager to clear the bench to build a Libelle, received for Christmas 2016, so that's my motivation to get this first wing finished. The prospect of starting the other one does not, I must confess, fill me with delight. I like building, but the number of repetitive tasks involved does not suit my temperament. Since this is not a site for online therapy, I'll say no more unless asked...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 Jan 2018, 23:14
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
I suggest that you check the plan again!
The plan calls for 1mm ply for the TE core, sandwiched between two layers of 1/16” balsa, sanded to follow the rib profile (I.e. down to just over 1mm thick at TE).
There is a note on the plan (between ribs 11A & 13 in the D box area) which says “From rear of aux spar to front false L/edge is covered in 0.5mm ply in brake area, outboard of rib 13 .....”.

Whilst the note specifically refers to the brake area, it means that the whole of the D box is sheeted in 1/64” (0.4mm) ply back to the rear of the main spar, plus the area aft of the D box around the brake box back to the aux spar.
In addition, I used 0.4mm ply to skin all other solid wooden surfaces on each wing and aileron, I.e the aux spar plus rear extensions for aileron hinge shrouds, the aileron upper & lower surface woodwork, the upper & lower surfaces of TE, plus top & bottom rib cap strips.
This should then essentially give all woodwork aft of the D box a 0.4mm ply skin. This increases the TE thickness to just over 1.8mm.
I fitted my Aux spar, TE etc. skins as long strips wide enough to cover the nderlying wood (plus a little bit) & then added 3/32” - 1/8” wide cap strips over each rib edge, cut from a longer length & trimmed to fit in each gap.
Once the joints have had a light sanding to get flush, you will have a smooth outer skin to cover.
Hope this helps clarify things.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Jan 2018, 00:02
by RobbieB
Greg,

Peter has given a perfect explanation regarding your confusion but sometines a picture paints a thousand words (or something like that, anyway).

So, if you look at the attached drawing taken from Cliff's book, the top most picture shows what Peter has described - the only difference being Ciff has used 0.8mm ply instead of 1.0mm ply with the in-fill balsa top and bottom between the ribs.
IMG.pdf
(111.88 KiB) Downloaded 264 times

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 03:30
by Greg Smith
Cliff's instructions on the plan.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 09:53
by Peter Balcombe
Hi Greg,
Yes that is the note I meant.
The note effectively says to skin the area between R9 & R13 back to the auxiliary spar (i.e. cover from false LE back to the rear of the brake box area), plus cover between false LE and rear of main spar inboard & outboard of that .

So.... what this means is that you skin the whole wing top & bottom between rear of main spar and the false LE (D box), plus the areas top & bottom around the brake boxes.
There is then an additional note near R4 saying to also skin the areas inboard of the angled shoulder spar and everything between ribs 1 & 2.
In addition to that, there is a note rear of the ailerons saying to fit 0.5mm strips for aileron shrouds & hinge spar cap strips.
If you look at the hinge point section (just under rib 14 section), you will see that the drawing shows a skin on both the rib and aileron - so this confirms that there should be main rib capping, aileron rib capping as well as TE capping.

I fitted the D box skins in several sections (previously having fitted rib top/bottom doublers where I planned to have a skin join), scarfing the skin edges for about 1/4” to get a stronger joint. (Do the top skins first whilst the wing is still jigged for tip washout).
I probably cut the ailerons from the wing at this point as the D box skins would have made the wing rigid.
I then fitted the sections aft of the main spar at root and in brake box area.
I then fitted spanwise spar caps, aileron shroud strips, TE caps etc.
I then finished off with all rib caps.
So, by this point, you should have all surface wood skinned.
I forgot to say that the LE strip is only glued on after the D box skins have been sanded back flush to the false LE strip, then the LE is planed/sanded down flush to the skins & shaped to nose profile by eye.

I must say, as Robbie has reminded me, that happening to already have Cliff Charlesworth’s book which contains a chapter on building the Olympia, did help a lot at certain points as the photographs filled in/clarified some of the detail not evident from the plan.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 16:27
by Greg Smith
Hello Peter! A most comprehensive set of instructions: thank you. I had a long post yesterday which disappeared when I tried to add another picture, so at that point I gave up! I’ll call later (probably about 9pm your time) . It’s very easy and there’s no urgency, so please don’t work anything around such a call!
The wing is off the board and seems rigid: it will go back on for sheeting. Quite a moment, but plenty of work to do on it still.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 16:58
by Peter Balcombe
Hi Greg,
I gather that the forum was being worked on at times yesterday, so that probably caused your problem as it also happened to me yesterday.
If you tried again then it would probably work ok.
I will be in this evening, so will be ready for your call (3rd time lucky hopefully).
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:30
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Nice to talk to you.
Check out my Cliff Charlesworth Oly 2b Update build thread page 2.
The 10th Dec 2015 post shows the pretty well complete wings & aileron structures prior to covering and shows the 0.4mm TE skins & rib caps.

The modified brake parts are shown in posts of 21st & 23rd Dec 2015.
The angled blade end is on the wing underside at the root end, moving downwards and towards the root as it opens.
The angled end allows the blade to always clear the end of the box as it comes out. (The tipside upper surface is scolloped to achieve the same effect as this comes up/out and towards the tip).
The actuating brake arm is at the root end as in the brake assembly photos should have the attachment point on the lower side, so is just below and outboard of the arm pivot when the brake is closed, moving further below the pivot as the attachment point is pulled towards the root to open the brakes.
This ties up with my previous expectation that my brake servos pull the brake open & push it shut.
As you say, if you pull the brake open too far, then the brake arm goes over centre & locks open! Thus you need to make sure you set the travel to just less than fully open to avoid any lock up.

I have just had a thought :o
You need to make a left hand and right handed brake assembly as the brake blade should be on the same front/rear side for the tops & bottoms.
I will check mine tomorrow!!

I will also check the servo positions tomorrow, but I may be able to check in the meantime via the build thread/update photos.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:57
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Aileron servo was fitted in rib bay in front of main spar, forward of the aileron horn, with access via taped on hatch in wing underside. I think it was essentially fitted where Cliff Charlesworth had his aileron pushrod bellcrank.
There is a photo of the installed 9g servo in the archived build thread.
It was a tight fit, but the servo just fitted under the skinning & no servo arm is visible as in the original plan.
You may have difficulty getting a wing servo into the rib spacing, but I suppose you could always put in a dummy rib to widen the appropriate bay.

The brake servo was fitted just behind the main spar under the root end angled skins so that it was out of sight.
This was again installed in a single rib bay on a ply plate - all accessible via a taped on hatch cover on the wing underside.
Servo horn is ok on the lower side as this is same side as the brake actuation point.
I will check exactly where it was tomorrow.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Jan 2018, 11:12
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Have checked my wings this morning & the brake servos are fitted just aft of the main spar between ribs R2A & R3.
My brakes assemblies are right & left handed, with full depth blades top front & bottom rear on each wing.
Servo covers are same thickness as skin, resting on bearers installed before wing was skinned & sanded flush with tops of ribs - thus top of cover will be flush with top of skin.
Photos below show detail of servo installation (9g MG micros servos in each case).
Photo labels will hopefully make each one clear.
Note that Cliff Evan's Oly originally used micro brake servos as mine, but he had a lot of trouble with burnt out servos. Changed to larger servos & had no further trouble.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Jan 2018, 12:11
by RobbieB
Peter,

That clevis in photo #5 looks a bit scary!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Jan 2018, 12:41
by Peter Balcombe
Yes, its closed up now though ;)

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Jan 2018, 19:00
by Greg Smith
Thank you for the latest advice, Peter: some important things dealt with there!I think I will be motivated to triple-check everything in an unprecedented way with this model. A friend has suggested that, with so much time and care invested in such creations, it is remarkable that they are ever flown at all. Perhaps like pregnancy, though, it's funny how once the model is in the air, the memory of the gestation period becomes less powerful.
I will look again at the servo issue. Given that the humidity here is generally around ten percent, it's not such a likely issue as in Britain, but I will remove the servo and test it outside the craft. I was relieved to hear about the wiring issue, as the runs will be long in the Oly wing.
I'm currently working on aileron hinging, using Robart hinges buried at three rib positions. Awkward enough to reconsider on the second wing.I won't worry if they don't match! The problem with putting them within the rib is that the little setscrews won't be accessible, so I have to make sure that the pin part is well anchored in the pockets: but this is doable. The crux is always getting things perfectly centred so that the aileron is free-moving.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Jan 2018, 20:18
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
It is probably also worth mentioning that whilst long servo leads aren’t a problem with 2.4GHz radios, I hope that you are going to use decent sized servo wire rather than thin stuff.
You need to minimise voltage drop along the longer cable lengths, particularly if running from 4.8v packs.
I use the standard (22 gauge?) wire without a problem, even with a 4.8v pack.
20 gauge would be better if available.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 27 Jan 2018, 20:36
by Greg Smith
Good point. I’ll also be using 6volt power supply.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 Apr 2018, 16:13
by Greg Smith
I have posted in general discussion as well: I hope the double post is OK, but I'm feeling a bit desperate here, as I don't have enough natural Solartex to cover my wings,and I've already done the tail assembly and rudder. I wonder if others were caught in the middle of a project? I'm kicking myself for not buying it earlier, but had no idea that that wonderful company was going out of business. If anyone has any, you'll probably hang on to it, but I'd really like to buy some and save this project, or get advice about an alternative. I SUPPOSE I could rip the covering I've already done, but I might not...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 06 Apr 2018, 18:45
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Cliff: I've done a bit of research and have ordered some stits polylite covering: yes, adhesive is needed for this. There is a technique video as well, and I must say it looks trickier than Solartex, which was the easiest covering I've ever used. Maybe save a bit of weight re adhesive, though, and it seems as if it will produce a very rigid structure.You cover the wing in one piece: one complete wrap... I'll report back, but it will certainly be a learning experience.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 20 Jun 2018, 05:20
by Greg Smith
Started up again after a long layoff, including a few weeks in Blighty! What amazing weather: hope you all got lots of flying in. I'm working still on the spoiler (still on wing one) and I must say that this is probably the most frustrating and time-consuming task I have ever undertaken in all my modelling life. I get it working fairly smoothly, then for some reason it doesn't work at all. Yet the basic mechanism is so simple, and I built it as accurately as possible, well aware of the need for exactitude.As per recommendation, I'm installing a hefty servo near the wing root, slotting the palstic bearers down in between two ribs, having worked out that I'll need 15mm of movement at the servo arm to achieve full opening and closing.
The highlight of my recent visit was visiting the RAF museum at Hendon and seeing David Glen's Spitfire model: oh, and flying a Radian with my great-nephew! I'll try to post a couple of pictures, but the amount of stab in the dark hacking that I'm doing might show me up in this company...

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2018, 01:04
by Greg Smith
I finally have a working spoiler! Now I understand the intricacies, I've decided to go ahead and make the second one for the right wing while the details of proper operation are clear. Still, the most important aspect of the whole frustrating experience has been what I've had to learn, for the nth time, about the state of mind with which to approach my building. Having said that, I could have built several (2?) common-or-garden kits in the time it has taken to make one spoiler. now I have to fit the assembly into the wing. I have put a strong servo in to operate it, which shouldn't really be necessary, but I had a few lying around. I've begun making the second one, and measuring my distances to the fraction of a millimeter achievable by an Optivisor-assisted eye and my ruler... Just ordered a little benchtop mini circular saw from Harbor Freight 'cause I hated cutting all those tiny pieces of brass tube. I hope my new photo method works: take the pic on the iphone, then send it to myself at my gmail account (only on the workshop computer) drag it to the desktop, then perhaps drag it to the message.
IMG_0505.jpg
unnamed.jpg

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 05 Aug 2018, 01:17
by Greg Smith
IMG_0507.jpg
The spoiler servo.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Sep 2018, 20:10
by Greg Smith
I'm having second thoughts about covering. Does anyone know if Oratex is a good match for Solartex? (probably natural or antique). Where might be the best place to order a sample in the UK? Thanks, guys.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Sep 2018, 20:29
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
No idea what Oratex is like, although it seems to have been used on full size aircraft, so should be good stuff.
I see that both Steve Webb and the Sussex Model Centre seem to stock it.
Approx. £25 per 2m roll, so about 50% dearer than Solartex.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Sep 2018, 21:37
by Greg Smith
Because I have already covered the tailplane and fin with Solartex, I have to find out if it's a match and if it has an adhesive already on it. I bought some Stits light over here, but I have no confidence that I can use it well on a first go. Solartex was sooo easy to use. I'll try Sussex model centre. Thanks, Peter. Has no-one used Oratex yet? Should I post in a different section?

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 Oct 2018, 16:35
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Just spotted that Airtek hobbies (www.airtekhobbies.com) advertise Oratex at £19.95 per 2m roll, which is a lot cheaper than Sussex Model Centre.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 May 2019, 22:21
by Greg Smith
I finished the port wing! A long hiatus, because I just wasn't happy with the work I had done, and, frankly, didn't want to go into the workshop to confront my inadequacies. I have long thought about writing a post about the psychology of tackling a project like this, but what always came to mind was the thought that I might be the only one in the place who thinks he's Napoleon... Nevertheless, I was encouraged by another member's post which indicated that he had spent a long time on bringing the wing structure up to level ready for covering, and managed to come to terms with what I had already done. Because I'd opted for pin hinges on the aileron, I also realised that I would have to fit the covered aileron in position before covering the main wing (or at least, leave the top or bottom uncovered, then fit the aileron, to have access to the hinges, then cover the remaining side). I wasn't happy about that. So what I tend to do is to think ahead to some imaginary snag, not necessarily see a way round it, get fed up and go and practice guitar instead! Thus the long building time. I also divert to easier projects, like refurbishing a big P-51 sloper which has been sitting around for many years.
Anyway, I put some good music on the stereo - soothing classical is best - and got down to all the exact measuring, cutting and sanding required and found, as usual, that the difficulty was not as great as I'd imagined. Because of the price of thin plywood over here, I used 1/16" balsa for much of the wing sheeting, so that caused more work too, having to match it to the plywood rib capping strips and the ply inner wing sheeting.
I feel better prepared for building the second wing, even though the early stages of the first are far enough away for me to be puzzled about some things. I am being very careful about all my measurements now, to save correction time later, and already have the spoiler and joiner box done, having made them as I made the first wing, so that should help things along.
Oh, but I look at my latest RCM&E and think how much I'd like to build something else, with a whole different set of challenges. And I shudder to contemplate flying this craft for the first time: perhaps I'll just hang it up in the living room, since I don't have a nice grass-covered slope site or a skilled tow pilot???
Will try to post a picture or two: I know you all can't wait!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 22 May 2019, 22:24
by Greg Smith
Oh, and thanks for the heads up, Peter. I sent off for the Oratex without seeing your advice, but I have it now. It became available over here at about half the price, after it was sent from England! But the advantage of being a slow builder is that the expense is spread out to where I remain unaware of the total cost of this project, and aim to keep it that way.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 23 May 2019, 03:16
by Greg Smith
Ha! So looking again at what will be the starboard wing, I see something I completely missed on the first one: between wing ribs 12 and 14 the auxiliary spar changes angle very slightly! There is a splice shown on the plan at this point... I saw this only because I put my big straightedge along the spar preparatory to drawing the spar on the reverse side of the paper. So I guess the wings will be slightly different?! Don't tell anyone. Oh, the mainspars and the T.E. are straight.I hope the rib slots take account of this: I probably widened them to compensate on the first wing without thinking why I might have to be doing that. You can laugh: I'm too far away to hear you.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 23 May 2019, 08:37
by Peter Balcombe
Greg, many wooded have slight differences between the two sides due to different amounts of ‘fettling’ needed, particularly if building from hand drawn plans.
No one will be able to tell the difference anyway, & as long as each wing is outwardly the same & has the same weight then it shouldn’t make any difference to the flying characteristics.
Keep up the good work. Nearly there!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 23 May 2019, 16:11
by Greg Smith
Good to hear from you, Peter, and thanks for the encouraging words. No-one else here does big gliders, so you fellows are my club.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 25 Jun 2019, 00:15
by Greg Smith
Working very slowly on the starboard wing. Checked the L.E. aileron piece for flatness: all good. Checked the 1/8" longerons for flatness: good. Glued one to t'other: no longer flat! Guess the glue contracted unevenly... Built up to flat again with 1/16" sheet sanded to flat. This is because my first aileron works, but does not roll in the shroud quite as smoothly as I'd like. The other thing which is critical, of course, is to carve/sand the L.E.cross-section of the aileron to a perfectly straight high point. Hmmm. So I marked the center of the L.E. with the calipers and a pencil line, then stuck a piece of masking tape along the line, and checked for straightness again. Then I marked with a Sharpie along that tape, ;leaving a clear black line which must remain after shaping. Hopefully this will mean that the aileron moves smoothly and consistently around the implicit centre of the L.E.'s half-circle. We'll see whether this is enough to produce a better result than my port aileron. I've learned much about thinking ahead, and trying to understand what has to be super-accurate to produce an adequate result! Usually it means being in the right state of mind and going slowly. I can really understand now how experience with these big models would pay off over a number of builds. This first one has been one difficulty after another, even after all the great help I've had from the club (online). I think I would enjoy the next build more as well, because of the increased confidence in knowing how things are done with this type of model. My first glider, built at fourteen, was a KK Caprice, and it flew very well, until a jealous 'friend' tied the line to the towhook!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 29 Sep 2020, 23:10
by Greg Smith
Well, I'm just waiting for the canopy and ducts for a Tony Nijhuis Jet Provost before I finish that as my first foray into ducted fan. Meanwhile, the wings of the Olympia are complete, the ailerons fitted and covered, so wing covering is next. The ailerons are my remaining Solartex, the wing will be Oratex, which gets good reports, but is an unknown quantity for me. Down at the local field I have also persuaded a member to get involved in aerotowing, so we're doing that with a foam ASK-18 rather than risking any of my beautiful real scale gliders, which have sat in the garage now for years, due to lack of slope or tug...
My wife was away for a few days, so I took the opportunity to put everything together on the Olympia, and fit the rear 'joiner' rods and tube. I'm using 7/32" aluminium tube inside 1/4" (OD) tube for the rear joiner. Took two days to get everything literally 'squared away' and balanced, the idea being that it'll fly off the board, as there's no other way to do it...
I would like to get incidences right before flying: even though it's probably good, because off the plan and laser cutting, I'm wondering if anyone has figures for the exact relationship of incidences between tailplane and wing. Theoretically, if the CG is right, lateral balance is good, the incidences are correct and nothing's too warped, it should fly, right? Do I get the title of slowest build in the West yet? If November goes the wrong way, I may be pining to return to English slopes!!!
Ha! I just saw elsewhere Peter's advice about putting a little strip along the false L.E. for the L.E. sheet to sit on. Wish I'd done that. Filler doesn't work well when it has nothing to adhere to. Too late.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Sep 2020, 03:15
by Greg Smith
I think I should have said 'decalage' but that whole subject seems to be open to misunderstandings. I'm sure you know what I mean!

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Sep 2020, 09:30
by Peter Balcombe
Greg, just put my Oly fuselage up on the bench & checked angle between tailplane (held neutral) & the line between my wing joiners(which should be central in wing).
I have my wing set at 2 degrees positive incidence with respect to the tailplane datum (which is where I thought it should be).
If you have +2 - +2.5 degrees then you should be fine.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Sep 2020, 17:19
by Greg Smith
Thanks again, Peter: that gives me something to work with. Seems like the tail plane will need a deal of adjustment, but I’ll report back.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Apr 2021, 17:18
by Greg Smith
Picture attempt.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Apr 2021, 17:19
by Greg Smith
Didn't work from phone.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 30 Apr 2021, 20:24
by Peter Balcombe
Greg,
Send the photo in aPM or email & I/Cliff will try to put it up for you.
Peter

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 May 2021, 01:57
by Greg Smith
Thanks, as always, Peter. I'll have something in a couple of days. I tried to send from my phone, and it didn't transfer from my photo library. I'll try on the laptop before bothering you. Leaving Covid behind for a while over here. Glad to see you survived at a high rate of building.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 May 2021, 23:30
by Greg Smith
Picture test.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 01 May 2021, 23:31
by Greg Smith
Well, it sort of worked. More in due course.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 May 2021, 08:22
by Peter Balcombe
Looking good Greg 👍
Picture will not auto rotate, so orientation of ones taken on phones/tablets may be rotated. Note the recommended max image size in notes on posting images.
I also normally crop my pics to reduce content to bits of interest before posting.

Keep at it - Nearly there now.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 02 May 2021, 09:02
by Barry_Cole
The phantom photo rotator strikes again....

:o :o :o :o

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 May 2021, 17:17
by Greg Smith
Yes, it rotated as it posted (nice rhythm).
I sent it at what I thought was indicated as 102 kb. Was it bigger than that? If it was , then the sizing control doesn't 'transfer' to the file.

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 May 2021, 17:26
by Barry_Cole
It seems to be an issue with I phones. Don't worry, it takes but a few seconds to get them the right way up.

BC

Re: Cliff Charlesworth Olympia build in Bishop, CA.

Posted: 03 May 2021, 17:36
by Greg Smith
Thanks, Barry!