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Minimoa colour scheme

Anything to do with gliders & gliding.
Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

HA ! not nerds Vince - I suspect we are what CW calls the Scale Police :D

OK here we go........
First one should mention that the Luftwaffe asos operated gliders, apparently attached to some units but this does not seem to be well understood.
I don't know what markings were originally specified but from 1939 Luftwaffe gliders were also ivory (Elphenbein) and marked for Whermacht Luft with the regions designated in roman numerals and the glider number in aribic numerals i.e. WL-IV-45.

On 25 June 1943 an entirely new registration system was introduced such as the LD + SA in your photo
The gliders were still ivory but the red fin band and white disc was discontinued (although I suspect the red band was abandoned shortly after the outbreak of war by both the Luftwaffe and NSFK)

This new registration system has some ambiguities. Photos suggest that NSFK gliders used a dash - between the letters and Luftwaffe gliders a cross +
Around this time many NSFK gliders were moved into Luftwaffe control as a shortage of fuel began to make the use of glider training using the two seat Go.4 Goeviers and DFS Kranichs for basic pilot training.

Later in the war, gliders were to be camouflaged to minimise the dangers of attack from Mustangs roaming across Germany. There doesn't appear to be any standardisation - some had a sprayed mottle finish, some a wandering wave pattern, some had short streaks where rags had been dipped in paint and a few had solid patches of colour with gaps between them. The paint seems to have been whatever was locally available in the various RLM green and grey shades, often using two or more colours. Application was to cover the bright ivory of course. In many cases it only covered the top surfaces and fuselage top decking but in other cases it extended entirely down the fuselage sides.

The big difficulty in Luftwaffe/NSFK research, is that more than 80% of original documentation was destroyed so only some of the marking instructions are known. The rest is pieced together from photographic evidence, although as noted, photos are rarely dated.
What I can say is that after the German surrender, one could see gliders with D-10-125, occasional red fin bands, WL-IV-45, LD+SA, LA-AC
which shouldn't have been possible if all the regulations had been followed !!!!! The reality is that the Germans did NOT faithfully and promptly follow the appropriate regulations, there were as many exceptions as there were compliance.

To further muddy the waters, a colour photo which I am not permitted to reproduce, shows that t least two Luftwaffe sailplanes from 1938 were painted grey but there might have been unique - unless someone has other colour photos to show otherwise. Monochrome photos of those two gliders look as if they were ivory and I would have bet my house on that - it shows how difficult photo interpretation can be.

Hopefully this is of some use to the half dozen other nerds / scale police/ accuracy enthusiasts who like to get things right !
Meanwhile does anyone have any photos of the 13m Habicht in camouflage ???? (rather than Stummel Habicht)
Paul
Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

Hi Cliff,
thanks for the drawings which I have seen before but unfortunately I believe those colour schemes are completely fictional.
As far as I know, there are no photographs to verify them.
The very few photos that do exist of the Stummel Habicht, show a substantially different paint scheme.

The Habicht and Stummel Habicht intrigue me as the few surviving documents suggest that far fewer were built than actually planned.
From the middle of the war the reduced span Stummel Habicht was used to train Me.163 rocket fighter pilots to make gliding spot landings. However some 13m Habichts were also used but I can't find any photos of the camouflaged ones. Help !

Paul
IJNoble
Posts: 28
Joined: 08 Apr 2019, 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by IJNoble »

A very big thank you to everyone and here is the end result. Still have to apply the tail number as the sign maker didnt get the font right and after looking at the photo closely, it looks like the green extends all the way onto the lower rudder.

Thanks again,
Ian
Attachments
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Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

Well done Ian, its so nice to see a sailplane in the prewar colours
A launch queue in the mid 1930's must have been a colourful sight.

Paul
IJNoble
Posts: 28
Joined: 08 Apr 2019, 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by IJNoble »

Hi Paul,
Thank you for the compliments and for you help. I have a Kranich II I'm planning on doing another pre war regional colour scheme. Robbie and Vince have been a wealth of information and I have eventually found a photo of one that seems to be in either a blue/white or green/white scheme. After that it'll be another Minimoa in a white/blue scheme.
I found a photo of the Stummel Habichts and it seems like the colour drawings are pretty close. Hope this helps out.

Best regards,
Ian
Attachments
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Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

Thanks for the Stummel photo Ian - at higher resolution the colour scheme is a bit different to the drawings.
I've also sent you a PM.
Paul
Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

Hi fellow scale nerds !
The best information that I can find about the 1935/36 glider colour markings is not very helpful.
There is no known standard colour specifications, nor any specified supplier - consequently it looks like the specific shade of green (for example) might vary from one glider to another.
What can be said with certainty is that the colours were NOT taken from the RLM colour range as they did not exist at that time.
On the upside, no one can say that your model is painted incorrectly ! unless Vince has any colour photos - but was colour available at that time ???
Paul
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VinceC
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Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by VinceC »

Lots of colour photos Paul, they were certainly available, here is one with the colour mentioned
Attachments
D-15-876.jpg
Paul_Williams
Posts: 173
Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 17:53

Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by Paul_Williams »

Cliff
We need to be careful of not comparing apples and pears.
I know Bernd and I am sure his colour swatch matches RLM Hellblau
As a colour reference I use the definite work by Michael Ullmann and I know Bernd has a copy of that.

My point was that there is no document that says the Hellblau paint required by the 1935/36 regulations was the SAME as RLM Hellblau.
Go to B&Q and get a paint chart from several paint manufacturers and see what each one calls beige or blue, all very different shades.
To define a paint you need a colour specification and non exists for 1935/36 colours.

The Mu13 colour photo MUST date from after April 1937 as it has a numeric registration. The colour is very probably earlier and does indeed look like Hellblau. But that does not tell us that the Hellblau on the two seat Minimoa was defintely the same shade (unless there is a Minimoa colour photo that I do not know of).

One of the 1935/36 colours is Grau....what shade was that ? because RLM 02, RLM 11, RLM 41 were all called Grau.
In 35/36 there was also Brick Red but no such RLM colour exists, further emphasising that many and perhaps all of these colours cannot be assumed to be precisely the same shades as the RLM colours.
Note that Akaflieg Munchen might have had access to some Luftwaffe paint ! and represent an exception rather than the rule - we don't know,

I would repeat my question - are there any colour photos of the 1935/36 glider colours. Apart from grey or silver grey, I haven't seen any but there might be plenty that I haven't seen. It would be great if you have some that you can show us Vince.

Of course I am taking a very pedantic view and saying we need real evidence to know what these colours really looked like.
I am quite happy to have evidence prove me wrong.
Most modellers will just select what looks correct and just get on with it - all power to them.

Paul
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VinceC
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Re: Minimoa colour scheme

Post by VinceC »

I don't believe "apples and pears" come into the conversation.

The photo I added was close enough ( within a year or 2) to the era of the implementation of RLM colours. The RLM colours logically would not just appear from nowhere as someones imagination, but would be based on existing colours already in use.

You sayTo define a paint you need a colour specification and non exists for 1935/36 colours[, however a reference of colours for 1935/6 does exist in the book "The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft 1935-1945"

Apologies to readers who don't believe in scale finish
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