Minimoa colour scheme

[Paul_Williams]

Actually Vince, I am ashamed to say that I didn't know that the Moazagotl was designated the Grunau 7.
The Minimoa was of course inspired by the Moazagotl but to avoid confusion, the two types were entirely different design, being only superficially similar.

I assume the two Ki25s referred to in the Japanese glider list are imported Minimoas and that the note saying 'similar to Minimoa' is incorrect ?

Can you confirm that the light and dark Minimoa photos are definitely taken in Japan ?
The airborne photo of the light one seems to have a blob on the rudder which is I assume a swastika that has ben obliterated. The landing wheel can be seen so its not the first D-Goppinger Industrie which had a skid I think ? but I cannot see any name painted on it …… sprayed out maybe ?

I cannot see if the dark photo has a slab side like the first D-Goppinger Industrie - what's your thoughts ?

The light machine with dark nose and stripe - was that taken in Japan ? Maybe this is the third high wing airframe ?
It would be great if you could locate the photos of D-Goppinger Industrie in Argentina.

Great stuff
Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Just realized that as the gliding expedition to South America was in 1934, Hirth must have been flying the Moazagotl as D-Goppinger Industrie wasn't delivered until 1.8.1935
Paul

[Paul_Williams]

A key feature of the prototype Minimoa was its hanging control column. This is said to have been for Wolf Hirths benefit, to make access to the cockpit easier as he had one artificial leg. I don't know if there is an original source for this ?????
It seems far more likely that the hanging control column was used to reduce the length and weight of the control system and to allow a shallower fuselage because there was no need to route the torque tube under the seat or for bellcranks and pushrods running up to actuate the ailerons.
This system had been used in the earlier Lippisch Storch IX and the successful Stuttgart F1 Fledermaus of 1933 and Hirth would certainly have known of it.

The flat sided fuselage seems a retrograde step from the oval Moazagotl and might have been intended to reduce costs but with its contoured rear fuselage top decking, its doubtful that it achieved that.

The early Minimoas were noted for using split flaps for landing but in the photos I have seen, I cannot see them on D-Gottinger Industrie but there may be other photos ?

It is said that the prototype was delivered on 1.8.1935 in time for the Rhon competition.
The Minimoa appears in Flugsport for 21 August 1935 but strangely the photo montage has close ups of the flat sided prototypes rear fuselage and rudder, whilst other photos in th same montage show a DIFFERENT high wing prototype under construction with an oval fuselage. I looks as though the incomplete fuselage is sitting flush on the ground, which implies there was no wheel-box fitted, only a skid.

Incidentally the Rhon competition number 57 can be seen on the fin. In the entry list the registration is given as D-GOTTINGEN presumably an abbreviation. As the new registration system had just been introduced, the colour of each entry is given - and the Minimoa is quoted as rot/Schwarz or red/black. Looking at the photos everyone will say the nose is light but this discrepancy is caused by the way that 1930's photographic film 'sees' the colour red.

Paul

[Peter Balcombe]

Paul,
There is a description of the top hung control stick arrangement for Wolf Hirth on the prototype Minimoa in Martin Simons’ The Worlds Vintage Sailplanes 1908-45 on page 109.
The text goes on to say that the arrangement was not popular and was abandoned in favour of the normal control system on all subsequent Minimoas.
There is a B/W photo of Wolf Hirth trying out the unusual control column arrangement with Martin Schempp looking on from behind.
I can scan & post if that would help.
Also included in the Minimoa section of the above book are B/W photos of D-4-531 it’s after a bungee launch, a pic of what is stated to be an early production Minimoa showing split flaps fully drooped & also a post-war air to air shot of D-10-921 with swastika removed from photo.

Peter

[Paul_Williams]

Hi Peter,
I had to buy a copy of Vintage sailplanes of the World, as my former Kranich is on p71 and I am the third person from the left lifting the fuselage, with Chis Wills on far left and my wife Lynne fixing the dolly in place
So scan not needed but the offer is much appreciated.

As you say the hanging control column being for Wolf Hirths benefit is mentioned but what I was curious to know, is whether there is any reference to that circa 1935/36 or whether its a myth that has sprung up to explain that curious feature.

Martin Simmons splendid book was published 34 years ago (!) and its always worth looking again as new material is always being discovered.

Paul

[Paul_Williams]

In Vom Wolf Zum Mini Nimbus, there is an incomplete of early Schemp-Hirth works numbers.
wnr 1-15 include 11 x Go.1 Wolf, 1 x Go2 and 3 x Minimoa

wnr
6 D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE flew 1.8.35 no wheel, high wing owned DVL Goppingen then to Japan 1935
11 ???????? flew 17.11.35 normal control column - high wing - to Japan Shizurn
14 YR-AVP flew 3.4.36 normal control column - high wing - to Roumania

From wnr 16 to wnr 122 only 12 gliders are known, 2 x Go.1 Wolf and 10 x Minimoa which creates an unfortunate gap in our knowledge.

wnr
20 D-15-790 flew 9.5.36 owned by Beuth- Schule Neckargemund so Presumably this was D-STADT NECKARGEMUND ???
32 D-Chemnitz III flew 29.7.36 to Argentina 25.11.36 as ARGENTINA
33 D-16 ???? flew 12.9.36
55, 56, 70, 71, 85, 86, 87 other Minimoas

123 curiously this is also listed as D-Chemnitz III and later D-7-122 Flew 7.5.37

As can be seen, there is nothing relating to the second D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE

Its difficult to reconcile this information with photos
wnr 6 D Goppinger Industrie high wing - no wheel - does not seem to have split flaps (I could be wrong here) presumably this is also the dark coloured glider in Japan, having had the nose resprayed.
wnr 11 is presumably the white glider with high wing and a wheel that went to Japan. Not known if it had split flaps.
wnr 14 YR-AVP high wing, wheel and photos show split flaps.

The second D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE had a pale (white ?) fuselage with a (red ?) stripe, high wing and a wheel - flaps not visible.
Is it possible possible that this also went to Japan and was wnr 11 ??

Flugsport photos in February 36 show a high wing Minimoa, with a wheel and split flaps - dark fuselage and lighter nose - unknown but presumably between wnr 17 and 19

Photos show D-STADT NECKARGEMUND had a mid-wing and also had split flaps

wnr 32 D- CHEMNITZ III was also mid wing with upper surface spoilers

Can anyone fill any gaps or correct this information ?

Paul

[Paul_Williams]

One especially interesting thing to come out of this thread is that the names/registrations D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE and D-CHEMNITZ III were not unique and that both names were used twice.

This poses several questions -

Could a unique registration D-NAME be reissued if a glider was written off ? or only if it was exported ? Currently, we don't know.
Alternatively, did this only happen because Wolf Hirth was avoiding a new registration fee ???

Any other examples of reissued names ?

Finally - Part 1 of German Glider Colours & Markings will be posted as a separate thread, today or tomorrow.
Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Earlier in this thread, photos of NSFK gliders in Elfenbein/FAS,1 ivory/cream finish, were posted, showing some sections of the fuselage nose painted blue/grey - apparently in contravention of the regulations.

50 years later, a pilot stated that this was in response to the difficulty of seeing gliders painted in Elfenbein, in the air and that this had led to at least one mid-air collision. The blue/grey marking was therefore adopted to counter this at his airfield. As yet, there is no other confirmation of this.
However registrations in the photos show that this practice was adopted in a number of different areas. Again its not known if this was formally authorised or an unofficial practice that was tolerated.

Work on German Glider Markings continues but is taking longer then expected as its generating even more new questions about fundamental issues.

Paul

[IJNoble]

Hi Paul,
My apologies again for prying open this can of worms! Its interesting that they painted the noses light blue grey rather than a more intense colour. At least it answers one of the many questions......

Best regards,
Ian

[Paul_Williams]

Hi Ian,
only just spotted your post - apologies for opening the a can of worms ??? On contrary - hours of endless fun - so endless that you might have noticed that I still haven't posted the promised piece on German Glider Markings, as every time I find an answer to some point, it kicks of several more questions. However, I'm getting close to getting something out there and exposing it to scrutiny, criticism and abuse

To save re-reading the entire thread, if I didn't say so before......
There is no evidence that the precise shades of the coloured fuselages 1935-1937 were ever formally specified - beyond red, green, yellow etc

The colours Hellblau and Hellgrau might be the same as the RLM shades used by the Luftwaffe but there is no actual evidence one way or the other. The names simply mean Light Blue and Light Grey and could have been supplied from a variety of different manufacturers - each producing their own particular shade. As an illustration, try going to Halfords for a rattle can of white spray paint ! how many shades of white can there be ?????????

Luftwaffe colours were precise shades (still with some minor variations between batches) with prefix numbers such as RLM 65 Hellblau - so we know what shade the colour 65 actually was. Unfortunately documents, colour specifications and paint chips are not available for the period 1935-38, although some specified colours did exist in this period.

Unhelpfully there was an L40/52 Hellgrau as well as RLM63 Hellgrau.
Over the years Hellblau existed in different shades as RLM 65 (1938), RLM65 (1941), RM77, RLM78.
So before toddling off to your local model shop for a can of Hellblau - you have to think - which Hellblau !

In the meantime I am searching for photos of any gliders in Schulen markings and also a colour photo of schulen gliders . Any help appreciated.

Paul