Minimoa colour scheme

[Paul_Williams]

Vince - as I do not have a copy, can I ask if the Monogram book actually states that gliders in 1935/36 were painted in specific RLM colours ?

Ullmann's and every other reference I know of, are silent on glider colours of 1935/36. Experts in the field tell me that no documents have been found, identifying the precise shades or referencing them to the RAL standard colour definition system.

Of course I appreciate that the RLM colours didn't appear out of thin air.
The RAL colour system was established in 1927 by the Reichsausschuss fur Lieferbedingungen (RAL) to recommend a restricted number of colours for general use. Initially there were 13 basic colours and 27 more created by mixing them. The number of colours expanded rapidly and by the end of 1930's there were more than 100 shades.

Ullmann lists 44 RLM colours used 1935 -45 but for example 4 of those colours only appeared later in the war. Luftwaffe camouflage changed significantly in 1938 and I believe many of those colours did not appear until after that date.

If we look at the colours gliders were to be painted - by paint name....
RLM 21 is Weiss (white) as is RLM 67 but they are quite different shades - as are the following...………….
02, 11, 41, 42 are all called Grau
62, 72, 73 are Grun
04, 27 Gelb
65 (1938), 65 (1941), 77, 78 are all Hellblau.
The fact that the first 65 Hellblau, is qualified as 1938 makes me wonder if an RLM Hellblau existed earlier or not ? Personally I have no idea.
Blau was a colour gliders were to use but does not exist in the RLM range, nor does Ziegelrot (brick red)

I hope this proves the point I was trying to make (perhaps I could have explained it better) which is that we do not KNOW what exact colours gliders were painted in 1935/36.
It proves that two of the colours were not available as RLM colours and proves that other paint colours and shades were available at that time.

There are two possibilities ……….
None of the colours were identical in shades to the RLM colours.
Or
Most of the colours were identical to the RLM colours, with two additional rogue colours- Blau and Ziegelrot.
But if RLM colours were to be used- WHICH of the four Grau, three Grun, two Weiss, two Gelb ???????
Because we have no document specifying which shades were to be used - the answer is, that at the moment we just don't know.

Incidentally, experts acknowledge some Luftwaffe fighters in 1935/38 were painted a shade of Grau which is definitely different to any of the official RLM shades.

As regards the Mu.13 photo - I did agree that it looks like Hellgrau - whether that was the shade we know as 65 is open to question but I personally think it was. However one photo does not prove that this shade of Hellblau was used on ALL gliders of this period or that is was mandatory to do so.
This makes it all the more important to find period colour photos to provide more evidence - even though such photos are not colour true and deteriorate with age, they are the best we can do.

I hope that I have shown that my view is logically based on the most up to date published information that I am aware of.
I'm more than happy to be proved wrong by good quality evidence because that way we find the truth of the matter.

Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Cliff
yes the Luftwaffe did use some Mu.13s for training but none of them had the early multi-coloured markings, for the simple reason that series production of the Mu13 didn't start until AFTER the colour registration system had been superseded by cream and numeric registrations. From 1937 Luftwaffe gliders were cream, like civil gliders.

I realised that we have all automatically assumed that the Mu.13 colour photo shows a paint scheme from 1935/36, so I thought it should be examined more closely.

I have already agreed that the colour photo shows Hellblau but what does that really tell us ?

The numeric registration proves the photo was taken after April 1937.
We know a colour called Hellblau was to be used in 1935 BUT ONLY for region 2 / Stettin and there it was to be applied to the WHOLE fuselage.
You will note the photo has a white nose.

There is NO two tone region that uses Hellblau in 1935. The nearest similar marking is area 13 Nurnberg, which was Weiss/Blau - white nose and blue fuselage - but as you firmly point out, the colour photo shows Hellblau NOT blue.
So the glider in the colour photo does not comply with the 1935 regulations.

It gets better.....
In 1936 Hellblau is not used for ANY region. The Stettin Hellblau colour was to be repainted Blau overall (emphasising that Hellblau and Blau are different colours). The Weiss/Blau of Nurnberg was now to be repainted as Weiss/Grun - so even if the Blau looked like Hellblau, it should have been overpainted before the numeric registration was added.

On the above evidence, the colour photo shows a Mu.13 in a non-standard colour scheme that was painted after April 1937, which is relatively rare but not unknown.

Lets look at this a different way - what is the identity of the glider in the photo ????
To my eye it looks like a standard short fuselage Mu.13d but according to the documentation here on SSUK, the Mu.13 did not enter series production until 1939 but I haven't seen a source for that quote. We do know that there were three Mu13s at the 1937 Rhon, two in 1938 and 9 in 1939. So it seems more likely that production started late in 1938 after the colour era.

The prototype Mu.13 was D-Atlante which flew in 1935, its hard to tell the colour but the nose looks slightly darker than the fuselage but it could be an illusion. This would be consistent with the Munich area in 1935 - Blau/Weiss. Unfortunately photos in 1936 look all one pale colour, even though it should have been Grun/Weiss.

Merlin the second prototype did not fly until the early summer of 1936. At an unknown date it was converted to motor glider with the glider registration D-14-127 - Munich region. Interestingly the fuselage is obviously coloured overall and could well be Hellblau but there are only b/w photos.

Atlante flew in the 1936 and 37 Rhon competitions and was progressively modified with its flaps removed, a new rudder, different dihedral etc.
I do not know its later numeric registration (help anyone ?). However I do not see any evidence to suggest the colour photo is Atlante and the colours are of course all wrong.

There appears to have been a third prototype as there were three Mu.13's at the 1937 Rhon. Apparently these were Atlante, Merlin and one other.
The name of number three is unknown but we do know the regions they came from and the colours for 1935 and 1936.....
8 Grun/Weiss Blau/Weiss
14 Blau/Weiss Grun/Weiss (flown by Schmidt this is probably Atlante)
15 Rot/Schwarz Grun/Gelb

None of these colours are compatible with the white nose/hellblau fuselage in the colour photo.
As it looks like these were the only Mu.13's flying before April 1937, the colour photo is not compatible with any of these scheme from 1935/36.
it must be a later non standard scheme.
So we have two strands of evidence to that effect and - it probably was to support our assumption that the glider was painted in 1935/36.

So what do we know about 1935/36 colours ? not a lot.
We know the names of the colours but not their exact shades.
Were they the same as the RLM colours ? we don't know.
If they were the same as the RLM colours - we don't know which of the different shades they relate too. Indeed, some of the shades were never used by the RLM/Luftwaffe.
In 1935 the colour Hellblau is specified but we do not know that is the precisely the same shade as RLM Hellblau 65. It probably was but we don't know that.

I think that I have demonstrated that the Mu.13 colour photo is probably later than 1937, so we have NO colour photos of any 35/36 gliders
(can anyone help ?) and nothing to confirm what shade of Hellblau was used.

In the absence of documents connected to colour specifications and colour swatches or any colour photos, the best modellers can do is to use intelligent guesswork - and in this informational vacuum, I have no problem with that. Its all we can do at the moment.
If we can identify which region a glider comes from, then we can find the colours and try to interpret b/w photos and then relate them to RLM paints (if that's your call). However with so many similar RLM paint shades, lets accept that we are guessing. Of course you can accurately match your paint to an RLM colour swatch but to get to that point uses a lot interpretation with the Mk.1 Eyeball. I have personally been stunned when seeing a colour image of a scene I already knew well from b/w images, to find the aircraft were a totally different colour to that deduced by the experts (with who I agreed).

Apologies for such a lengthy and pedantic thread but you have to look at the evidence very carefully.
Actually colours are not my thing and a complete PIA.
Best I can do is to point out the current lack of facts, make people question what they are looking at and hope someone with better information can enlighten us all.

Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Despite proof reading I managed to garble one sentence - should read...…….

So we have two separate strands of evidence that completely undermine our assumption that this glider was originally painted in 1935/37.

Paul

[Graham Stanley]

If the Mu13 photo isn’t before 1937, what about the Minimoa colour photo earlier in the thread and also the two seater Minimoa ?

[Espenlaub]

Photo © by Archiv H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

[Espenlaub]

This is turning into a Nerds Corner
What about these GB with a Swastika, but no red markings dated 1940, any thoughts as to why?

Drawing © by H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

[VinceC]

Thank you Habs-Jürgen for posting those lovely photos

[Paul_Williams]

Vince,
as you say this has become a nerds corner but such forensic study is the only way we get to establish the truth of the matter.
The article on German glider markings on SSUK came from the VGC and was written around 40 years ago and I had a tiny input to that.
However it needs to be appreciated that was long before the internet and hardly any photos had been published - sharing photos was very difficult. So there was no pool of information to draw from
.
The register of 'named' gliders and the numeric register (D-10-125) were lost during the war and a data base is slowly rebuilding it, adding a few every week. It was long assumed that D-10-125 was the 125th glider in district 10 but my recent analysis suggests that multiplied across all the districts, this would give more gliders than were ever built in Germany. So it looks like the 125th registration in the whole country - that is the 125th NSFK registration, as many were registered WL Whermacht Luft. The number of known registrations is still too small to consider this an established fact.

I think its time to try to set the record straight (as far as we can at the moment) and a better article on makings will be a much easier read than this discussion !!! thankfully.

I am delighted to see Hans Jurgens photos -many thanks indeed. More samples like this are the evidence we need.
I will answer the points raised by Graham, Hans Jurgen and your query about the Habicht fin band in separate posts as quickly as I can, although it is interrupting this splendid building weather.
Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Graham raised the point about the colours of the Minimoa 2a Moswoa two seater and I also failed to answer Cliffs point as well.

The Mozwoa was built in 1937 and it was a rush to finish it for the 1937 Rhon that started on 25th of July. The all cream/numeric registrations were introduced on 1 April and the Mozwoa appeared in varnished ply - no colours. It remained like that until it was repainted around winter 1941 and of course at that time RLM paints would have been used. So it does not show pr-war colours. For more info see Vinces splendid drawings and article elsewhere on this site.

I have now established that the prototype D-Atlante became D-14-150, so its definitely not the Mu.13 in the colour photo.

Its worth mentioning that we almost never know what numeric registration a named glider changed to. Nor is there a cross reference for the change from numeric to four letter codes - this is not easy.

Now that Hans Jurgen has provided two more Minimoa colour photos, I will deal with all three in a separate post.
Paul

[Paul_Williams]

Thanks to Hans Jurgen and IJNoble. we now have three colour photos of Minimoas.

The numeric registrations date all three to post April 1937.
D-8-61 carries the competition number 14 from the 1938 Rhon and D-17-1013 competition number 31 also from the 1938 Rhon.
Neither of those Minimoas has a rudder mass balance which I believe were a later mandatory modification but this can be seen on D-15-695, so its reasonable to assume that photo is later than summer 1938.

Can the paint scheme be earlier ?
The prototype Minimoa flew in 1935 and looked quite different to later ones (see Vinces great drawings in the SSUK article - Oh link not working ?)
Several more distinctive prototypes were built into spring 1936 - so we can eliminate the 1935 colours.
It isn't known how many 'standard production' Minimoas were built in 1936 and 37 but 5 appeared at the 1937 Rhon, so a guess would be 5-10 by April 1937.

For 1936 the colours should have been D-8-61 Blau/Weiss
D-15-695 Grau / Gelb
D-17-1013 No colours for 1936 as Region 17 did not exist until April 1937

Warning - Luftwaffe paint experts (nerds that make me look normal ) point out that old colour photos did not necessarily capture the original colour, deteriorate and colour shift with age. The colour doesn't necessarily copy true when scanned and looks different from one computer screen to the next). Even by £50 copy of Ullmans definive work contains paint chips where RLM05 Elfenbein (that replaced the NSFK FAS.1 cream and was almost identical - is clearly the wrong colour !!!!

What we can say is that its unlikely we have three colour photos of the 5-10 Minimoas built before April 1937. In my opinion - none of these were.
It follows that the photos probably show RLM colours.

D-17-1013 My guess is Hellgrau L40/52, which was different to Hellgrau 63. Note the fully painted Rhonadler wing in the photo, the same colour ???????

D-10-61 Looks like Hellblau 65 although Hellgrau 52 is not an impossible interpretation.

D-15-695 I will stick my neck out and say definitely Hellblau 65

Unfortunately none of the three Minimoa and one Mu.13 colour photos, show 1935/36 colours, so we do not have a single example !!
In the past they have mislead us all.
However we can now say that we have four examples of coloured sailplanes CONTRARY to the regulations of April 1937.
That three of these are Minimoas might just be coincidence or perhaps initially the factory offered a colour option ? pure speculation.
I do note that two colour Kranichs can be seen in b/w photos of the 1938 Rhon.

My impression is that these were a very small minority but its still surprising to see them in heavily regulated Nazi Germany and maybe there is another story yet to be uncovered.

In the meantime - does anyone have more colour photos of multi coloured sailplanes please ?????
We cannot reach serious conclusions based on a sample of only 4 photos.

Paul