Scale Soaring UK

I am so pleased you asked this question in view of the Mynd discussion. I was about to start a thread on this subject myself and surprisingly, at the same time, Chris Williams produced a detailed article in the current version of RCSD.

My thoughts are that sustainers are fine for other forms of model gliding, but when a full size glider never had a sustainer, then there is no reason to add one to your model and then call it a scale model.Gliding is all about testing your skills by use of wind and thermal energy and if a full size pilot reckons the conditions don't exist, then he doesn't fly and that applies to us. No cheating. If you want to fly in poor conditions, build something different

Just because you can doesn't mean you should

I don’t want to fly a scale model glider with a non-scale motor. But many of us do not have access to a slope that is suitable for scale flying, and the nearest tug and suitable flying field is over two hours away. So I can understand why some folks, who want to enjoy flying a large scale glider, would use a small electric motor in the nose which cannot be seen in flight. It is just an alternative method of launching, and for some just that ability to enable flying more than outweighs the loss of scale fidelity. How many scale models are REALLY scale anyway? Many ‘purists’ on this forum use modern wing sections or have enlargened tailplanes to make their vintage gliders fly better - now that might be a matter for the scale police

Simon

Whilst I would rather only have a sustainer on a scale glider that had one on the full size I'm not so hung up on it if people want to put a prop on one that only (say) had an up and go (or didn't have one at all come to that). I agree that part of the fun of slope soaring is to test your skills when the slope lift or thermals vanish but I definitely test and hone my own skills if I have a prop on something as I can/will hang on to the last possible moment looking for lift before (sometimes) turning the motor on. If I didn't have a prop I would probably never even have launched and so there would be no skill development.

Anyway with the new CAA rules about max flying height of 400ft FROM GROUND LEVEL (not from launch point as previously understood) props on gliders are the least of our problems for slope soaring!!
Our modest local slope is apparently 163m high so if we fly away from the slope we'd have to land or try and estimate what height above the slope (but below launch point) we were flying at INSANE. Lord knows how high the Long Mynd is.....

Simon

The answer to this question is yes and no for me. I like a glider to be a glider but I think substaners and fes is right for some. Especially when no tow plane or some sites that need it. I myself am converting my vega to fes but making a dummy nose to make it back to a glider. So with out spoiling the lines of the vega. I have to travel along way to get to a slope so this can be flying at my local flat club.

Should they be used at a Scale Event?

I still want it to be scale that is why I did the dummy nose. It will be flown in that way most of the time. .when the red tape is around the join you will not know.

I still want it to be scale that is why I did the dummy nose. It will be flown in that way most of the time. .when the red tape is around the join you will not know. So still scale

I still want it to be scale that is why I did the dummy nose. It will be flown in that way most of the time. .when the red tape is around the join you will not know. So still scale

VinceC wrote: ↑19 Jul 2018, 13:54 Should they be used at a Scale Event?

Absolutely - model flying and scale gliders is gradually dying out - we can’t afford to lose people from events because OUR view is that a motor is illegal! Live and let live I say. Let everyone enjoy themselves in their own way , because launching with that motor doesn’t stop anyone else flying, it is not a safety issue (any more than tugs with propellers), and above 50’ you can’t see the prop.

As Simon W-S has said, it’s not my thing (today) but I could see a time when Aerotow events don’t get enough takers and die out, so my only flight options might be FES.

Simon

Ps - most tugs at Aerotow events have NO scale credentials. I like to see scale tugs pulling scale gliders. Should we ban those tugs?

Simon -t said it in one.
Live and let live. I don't look at old timer models with old timer pilots and say "hey the airfoil section is wrong, Hang on there that's not the correct wing cord at the tips,why did you decide to change the colour from that of the full size" and that you should now not be allowed to fly in an event. SO. HOW DARE THEY SAY THAT I CANT BECAUSE OF MY CHOICES.

Live and let Die. Take a look at any supplier of beginners models these days,whether it be Hobby- king, Ebay, Gliders etc and you will find that most models sold as gliders will come with a sustainer on the front. Why. because the very few new modelers coming into the hobby aren't at all interested in pure flight. The wonder of a heavier than air aircraft flying unaided in the sky has gone.Died with the last generation,Its Deader than tank tops. The youngsters are now so used to seeing aircraft on telly and YouTube with next to no wings doing mach 3, and military drones bombing Syria, controlled from thousands of miles away back in America that stoodling about close to a stall trying to preserve height leaves them less than cold. (and quite frankly has me for some while). The modern youngsters view may come as a surprise to some people but guys get used to it,that's a fact. The suppliers know this and to sell a model to a beginner at all ,will require it to have the means to get air born without necessarily the need of a slope. When youngster's come to us on our slopes with such a model (and they do)l we welcome them with open arms and get them flying and hopefully hooked for life. Would you, on your slope, or would you say *cant fly that here son its banned"!! That this should happen on any slope in Britain is utterly ridicules in this day and age and makes me feel ashamed.

With the full size now sporting sustainers and many of us model gliders modelling them the younger generation will come to recognize and except motors on gliders as the norm.

Like most things commerce drives the world forward. If it should want to sell models with motors up front, then motors will win out no matter who or what stands in its way.. Just a matter of time until it comes to you.

I still feel that to a great extent it is up to the land owner's what is and isn't banned on their land.For an instance we have three clubs all using the same slope's for their enjoyment. Thankfully all embrace sustainers so a conflict does not exist but if it did the land owner would have a say. Likewise if a member of the public was to complain about any dangerous activity going on on their land and the landowners agreed they could ban all further activity possibly under the dreadful Alf and safety banner.
So the landowner does have a say. Ter.

I am amazed that this even warrants a discussion. Theoretically any full size glider could be retrofitted with a FES and thus be scale, if it is a scale comp where documentation is required then a model so fitted (if the full size was not) would not be scale.

It really all depends how many rivets you want to count and for that look at the plastic scale model forums, some really get upset over the accuracy or not of various models, pistols at dawn scenario.

Personally if it helps me fly a scale glider solo then great (and isn't that what it is all about?), it is a compromise I am prepared to take, it opens up a whole load of places to fly from so it's a YES from me and the Scale Police needs to move with the times

Hope I haven't offended anybody, not my intention.

I've not personally had to face this dilemma but for me Chris W. makes the case very eloquently in his RCSD article. What matters and what doesn't on scale models is always a very personal choice. Personally, I've never understood why competition scale models were allowed to change their propeller between static and flying judging, but I wouldn't seek to ban anyone flying with a non-scale prop - just expect to see it marked down in the static judging.

Surely even the Scale Police should be content to mark down (or sneer and make snide remarks, depending on the formality of the event!) when confronted by a moustachioed glider. But ban from taking part? Surely not!

Now everything has been aired on this subject maybe Scale Police could look at Empty Cockpit Syndrome. I personally find this more offensive than a folded prop on the nose.

With the amount of detail these guys go into, Power Scale would be baffled at an acceptance of a prop on a scale model glider.

So, we need to differentiate between 'Fun Fly' and 'Scale Events'

Are there actually any "Scale" comps run these days. I thought they had died out years ago??



BC

They died out during SSS days, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for quality, a feature which is becoming unfashionable in this throw away and buy another one day. That is why our society has fewer and fewer skilled craftsmen

I was at one last Sunday Barry, and very nice it was too ( long mynd). Going to one next month at Leek and Moorland and that should be a bit of fun as well.
Brian.

I am sure you are right Barry. I used to run and judge the MVSA scale comp many years ago, and forgive me Brian but the Long Mynd scale is a meeting not a scale comp in the proper sense of the word. Apart from pilots preference there is no judging of scale fidelity and no judged flying as per the scale interpretation of the modeled aircraft. I am not knocking this I like many prefer it to a full on competition.
The problem with the scale competitions were that due to the relative high experience of the few, and the 'S' factor system employed in the show ring (most points going to the total scratch build, less for a kit build and less again for slot together. and if you bought it second hand forget a placing) it was found that the same great pilots won every time. No new and up and coming pilots would give over the 2-3 pound entrance fee just to take part and applaud the deserved winner. I tried to introduce a tier system which was to counteract that but it only ran for two years before finishing. People preferring the fly-ins as apposed to the full comp.

Having since attended many fly-ins I must say that they are the far better format. Now everyone can take part on an equal level with much more a fun day. Also lets face it Vince and the scale police ( are you one of the same I wonder )although there are some of us who like to build and fly scale ships finished to a concourse finish most are happy to sport a pilot or a retract.
Here in the south we have a number of impromptu scale get together' s as apposed to fly-ins. With word of mouth and the electric tom-tom's being the norm. We don't really care if your pride and joy is held together by sticky tape and string the only must is that you enjoy yourself. We certainly do not spend time worrying if someone is going to switch on a sustainer or not to get himself out of trouble,that would be a forgone conclusion.
This hobby of ours is so wonderful bringing together like minded people hopefully to enjoy the fruits of our labour honed by many years of practice, lets not spoil it by allowing the few to insist that my way is right,my way is the only way, or you are not flying with us. This smacks of playground bullying which to my mind has no place in our hobby. Regards to all Ter.

YouTube-- E Dartification and E Bergification --Both by Chris Williams (sorry cant seem to get the direct links)


This is what we are discussing folk.

I thought that we all ought to see for ourselves and make decisions while looking at visuals.
For much more info, more of Chris's Electrified models and his unique humor go to the RCDS thread on this site and down load.
You wont be sorry. Ter.

Maybe we should have a poll. Yes or no on this.

I vote YES...

BC

Perfect...Brexit all over again

mikeE wrote: ↑19 Jul 2018, 23:19.

Can't pass a comment, if you've never flown one.

Sorry to tell you,Terry, but Scale Police is not me, but I appreciate the fun and humour

Hi Vince, in that case, if the scale police is not you it must be Mr Cliff Evans.' He did it in the lobby with a candlestick in collusion with miss Grey'. I deduce this from checking the frequency and reliability of his posting when only he would make such a remark of an earlier post. I win give me the money Ter.

Dont care, its down to personal choice. And if the Scale Police want to start on at non scale tugs they are welcome to buy a scale one and do it themselves

As Chris said...................... It's Brexit all over again

I've just returned from my local slope where the 'breeze' was zero to two mph despite a forecast of five to six mph.
However, I had a thoroughly enjoyable session made possible with the help of the motor in the nose of my semi-scale glider which I turned on for just five seconds every three or four minutes.

I had a couple of twenty minute flights in conditions that I wouldn't have dared to attempt with an unpowered glider and this turned what could have been a frustrating trip into a satisfying visit to the North Downs.

The only sour note was the litter left by picnickers on the top of the slope and the McDonalds trash thoughtlessly discarded by visitors to the car parking area. Once again I cleared the litter and deposited it the bin in the nearby village - I still cannot understand why people cannot dispose of food containers and drinks bottles properly!!!

Mike E wrote :-The other aspect of this thread is where does a sustainer stop and power begin?
Chris’s article is great and Chris’s attitude to sustainers is also very good. I can see no reason why anyone would complain about his actions . He launches and recovers when necessary, with a soft motor on a model that is flown in light conditions. He flies in an area where agreements are in place and he respects them.

So where exactly is the problem?

Surly as chairman of the LAMA you are not suggesting that because some odd flyer may not fly in the manner that Chris does, that he may flaunt the rules, therefore no one can use sustainers on the Mynd, or are you?
If that odd flyer has no care for your rules he will fly there in the same manner anyway, so you are no better off.

Also it is talked about 'when used in an event'. We use them when and where they are required, perhaps every day perhaps not, not just in an event. Chris in his video which you admired was not in an event.He was at White sheet, land owned by the N.T.

However I believe I am correct in saying that the ban relating to the Mynd is total at all the times, at any time, and to any one.

I remember years ago when my father dragged me to every event going in the UK, most models were 1/5th scale. At 1 event, someone hauled a 1/4 scale Minimoa up the hill to a mixed reception... most were amazed and the minority were negative saying it was too big and dangerous.

Turn up at any event these days and see how many 1/3rd scale and bigger models are present. This is a natural evolution of the hobby. But not a take over, just another version what we were all doing 30 or 40 years ago with a little insurance policy on the front.

All the guys I fly with who have motors fitted are extremely competent pilot's and will only use the motor at the point of no return. This will probably last for a 30 second use of the motor to get back to a safe height. Surely this is better and safer than risking landing out of sight!

Cliff and friends, I apologize if my postings have offended anyone, That was certainly not the intention.
I may be straight to the point at times but this is only due to me trying to get a definitive answer to my questions. I believe that through this thread many flyers will have a much better understanding of sustainers and why we use them. I am sincerely hoping that in the future they will be allowed on the Mynd and my colleges and I will once again join the happy band of the Wolves club. Regards to all Ter.

An interesting discussion indeed, however I had a wry smile, as when registering we are encouraged "to register with your full name, and not some weird " avatar".", just curious why this would appear not to apply to Scale Police unless that really is their name.

We have to conform every day of our lives. Hobbies are for pleasure and the individuals choice, not of their peer. In the vast scheme of things doe's it really matter if it's scale or not?(If it was to the nth degree no one would meet the criteria). We could all be dead tomorrow!

matt - depends on the individual how much scale, but as for me, for example, the See Adler had rope around the base of the fuselage for mooring, so instead of using a bit of string, I made a rope walk and spun my own scale rope. Some may think I am crazy, but I like a challenge, but I would not even contemplate a propeller after all the effort I put in to it

I don't know what to say Vince, Seems that you are in the wrong hobby to me.You should have been a model railway enthusiast, they spend their time in a similar manner but don't fight the elements with it when its finished. My mothers words come to mind when I would take my latest efforts home in a dustbin liner. She would say, while shaking her head, hands in the sink, "all that work night after night, all that pocket money gone on bits and pieces, all that loving care to paint it, and then you go and chuck it off some hill.

To bring the thread back on line,what I will say is that I agree you could not have a prop on the front of such a lovely aircraft as that,that would be sacrilege. However if heavens forbid you should be flying it one day when you've not made peace with the wind gods and they stop blowing. With your lovely lovely model slowly descending into the abis below.With your buttocks clenched, you might, just might,be heard to say:-

"Now I agree that on the right aircraft a sustainer makes good sense". Kind regards Ter.

Two things of note at White Sheet yesterday...
First, that well known old purist Pat Teakle flew an E-Assist K18, and then asked if we could run an event for such models at White Sheet next year! Secondly, poor 'ol Ray Watts became the only one to land out, if decorating the top of a tree could ever be called landing out. Our intrepid chairman went all the way home and back to fetch his climbing gear (his other hobby) and retrieved the model for Ray. Obviously, a moustache in this instance would have saved an awful lot of hassle...

It does trouble me a little that those that oppose E-Assist seem to be the ones that have never tried it

This was another incident like my foray last year at the Mynd.

This time there was nobody really willing to give it a go with a non e-assist glider of any size, but I had flown my electric Thermic dream and found a lot of thermals so I prepped my 24 and waited for a thermal to pass through and launched. Initially I was at half hill height immediately from launch, but flying to the end of the hill, it came back up to my level. A couple of passes and then it hooked a thermal. This resulted in a climb to 1000 feet above launch. There followed a 40 minute flight using thermals which were in abundance and a good time was had. But then all of a sudden nothing and it came down about 200 feet a minute and it was game over. Unfortunately (or lack of skill on my part) whilst watching the shadow over the field at the bottom, I stalled the model at the wrong time and place and it sat itself in the top of the highest tree. E-assist would have prevented a whole lot of effort that followed the incident, and my feeling the need for oxygen after walking up and down the hill a couple of times. Many thanks though to the White Sheet chairman and his mate for recovering it which took about an hour and a half.

The 24 nose is coming off now.

Ray

chris williams wrote: ↑23 Jul 2018, 00:22

It does trouble me a little that those that oppose E-Assist seem to be the ones that have never tried it

Chris we had the same attitude about turbos on full size gliders to start with. "It can't be a proper glider because it has an engine". Now with the lack of crews and the risk of land out views have changed. The same will happen with modelling . From a comp perspective penalise a K factor for the prop and if used the flight is void, and with full size once the engine is started a land out is recorded.
Regards John.

A quick note about scale competitions. I cut my teeth on the White Sheet competitions, now but a distant memory. Why have they disappeared?
Consider the infrastructure required:
1: Static Judge: A knowledgeable person, happy to spend most of the day poring over three view and photos, and amiable enough to put up with the inevitable back-biting from contestants who feel they have been unfairly judged
Turnpoint 1 Judge: Able to sit on his own for entire day and watch other people fly
Turnpoint 2 Judge: Ditto
Turnpoint 3 judge: Ditto
Landing Judge: Ditto, although slightly more entertaining
Competition Director: Needs a skin as thick as elephant hide

Now, imagine rounding up all these volunteers, making them cancel whatever else they might be doing that day, and then telling them on the day that it's all off because the wind isn't cooperating. (And then repeating it four times in a row!) It's a wonder we held any competitions at all!

Today we have fly-Ins: practically no organisation, no volunteers required, and as amiable a bunch of non-competitive souls you could ever hope to find in a month of Sundays. Unlike the F3effers, we don't close the hill to other club fliers and (at least up until now) we all get along peaceably.

As far as I know, there is no formal scale aerotow competition in the UK

Therefore the inclusion, or otherwise, of a moustache on a model, should not be regarded in relation to formal competitions, as such things have to all intents and purposes died out...

We did hold a couple of scale aerotow events at Lasham, (My first towing duty) and MW in the early days. They basically died out for many of the reasons that Chis outlined previously, and that pilots did not want to travel for miles, and spend all day having maybe two flights, three if you were lucky. So the format changed to the fly in format that we have now.



BC

Personally, I don't care either way. I would never dictate to anyone how they should enjoy their hobby/pastime/sport but I do think it looks odd when I see a scale glider that clearly never had a whirly bit fitted with one.

Perhaps we should all build RF-4s or similar for marginal conditions.

Scale Police wrote: ↑19 Jul 2018, 22:46

Andrew Ray wrote: ↑19 Jul 2018, 20:07 I am amazed that this even warrants a discussion. Theoretically any full size glider could be retrofitted with a FES and thus be scale, if it is a scale comp where documentation is required then a model so fitted (if the full size was not) would not be scale.

It really all depends how many rivets you want to count and for that look at the plastic scale model forums, some really get upset over the accuracy or not of various models, pistols at dawn scenario.

Personally if it helps me fly a scale glider solo then great (and isn't that what it is all about?), it is a compromise I am prepared to take, it opens up a whole load of places to fly from so it's a YES from me and the Scale Police needs to move with the times

Hope I haven't offended anybody, not my intention.

We were only responding to a request for this subject! If a full size glider is retro fitted with a sustainer then fine, but if a model is based on a glider with no such device but fitted with said sustainer then, not fine in the eyes of the law!

Oops, not a hanging offence yet then

A late reply as I have been crewing for a mate at the Bicester Regionals, I wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of the law officer.

A few weekends ago, I spent time and money travelling to our local westerly slope on the promise from the met office of a half decent blow.
On arrival and rigging, I discover the 9mph is probably more like 5-6 and my discus being a little heavy would very likely struggle. I waited for half an hour then bottled it, packed up and went home. If i had taken my little ASW28 with motor in the nose, I could have had a couple of hours of gliding time, safe in the knowledge that if the wind was a bit tricksy, then my well loved model could be saved from the rocks and ocean below.

Every model I own, scale or not will be getting a motor if it's viable, technology has saved our already 'niche of a niche' hobby from the abyss as far as I'm concerned.

I realise this discussion centres on the scale nature of the hobby and that's why we're all members of scale soaring, but I do think that the ability to fly pretty much anywhere with added safety must have a great bearing on the promotion and hopefully expansion of this side of model aeronautics.

I am able to fly scale gliders pretty much any decent day now, in the field over the road, I don't need a bungee (not terribly scale) just a pocket full of lipos and the absence of enquiring cows; it's really put some pep back into my aeromodelling.

I've just ordered a scale profile spinner from Schambeck to adapt my Let Ash26 (1/3 scale) which will be very scale once I've found a real one with a FES on t'internet

As an aside, do the scale police take issue with say a 1/4 scale tug pulling up a 1/3 scale glider?

Ell.

Anyone (Scale police included) who complains about any sort of tug pulling up a scale glider, should be banned from all aerotows.

Tugs of any sort are expensive to run, and need constant maintenance to keep them flight ready.

For scale tugs apply a factor of 10 or more.

Just be pleased that there are people out there who are happy to provide and fly the tugs.



BC