Scale Soaring UK

Hi Folks,

Apologies if I'm a bit behind the curve here, but, are we stuck with the 400' /7Kg upper limits for the time being (or, indeed the future ) ?

Also, do we have to prove competency even if we are non-power (eg traditional slope soarer) ? If so, I guess this means 'A', 'B' and 'C' type tests as per the power modellers ?

I'm just about to start the build on a 1/5th scale soarer and am wondering about insurance (I have the standard BMFA insurance at present). Mind you at the rate I build it will probably be all sorted out (just like Brexit...)

Confused of Wiltshire

Dave, if you have registered an e-mail address with the BMFA then you should have just had an e-mail which explains it all. If you haven't and would like a copy then PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

But basically if you haven't got a BMFA A cert (power or glider) then you'd need to take the CAA online test (of BMFA one which they will be rolling out).

400ft for over 7kg models remains, as before, but for lighter models then BMFA.LMA,SAA and FPVUK members are exempt from this.

If your 1/5th scale soarer weighs more than 7kg then it is very unlikely you'll exceed 400ft

Thanks for the reply Frank. Just found the email.

I hope to come in under 7Kg !
Dave

As it's the 5 November do we need to register and take this B****y test or has the BMFA sorted it ?

Keith

Thanks for the clear that up Cliff, sounds like the best thing to do is just wait for the next BMFA update. Still confused, what do I get for my £9 ??????

Howard wise wrote: ↑05 Nov 2019, 18:06 Thanks for the clear that up Cliff, sounds like the best thing to do is just wait for the next BMFA update. Still confused, what do I get for my £9 ??????

Basically nothing... You just say "Legal"



BC

I now have my flyer ID and will get on with cutting some stickers for my airframes, will play havoc with the scale police...

Fairly painless and for less than £1 a month, I'm struggling to find many negatives, it'll now be easy for us legit pilots to spot non legit airframes without their numbers.

Ell.

I think your labels need to carry your operator Id, not your flyer id:
https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/label ... l-aircraft

Elliot
did you take the test or just register ?

Elliot, the ID number doesn't have to be shown on the outside of the airframe. Anywhere inside, such as the battery compartment will do. See the BMFA site for this and other general comments.

Richard.

Cliff, that's a B****r, I haven't had chance to read all the guff, just thought I'd better do it whilst it was fresh in my mind...

Oh well, the online test was a good refresher - did my theory for PfCW or whatever it's called now a couple of years ago, big plans that came to nothing because we moved house.

Ell.

I thought we (BMFA) members were told to wait ! Anyway thank you BMFA for your efforts in this matter. Regards John.

A possible problem, I think if you register and pay direct and not through the BMFA renewal, is that event organisers or club membership secretaries will not be able to see that you are legal and paid / registered etc. as it won't be showing on the BMFA membership card or showing on the Go Membership Portal. You'll have to have separate proof from the CAA direct. Just showing numbers inside a model aint proof. Cliff / Elliot did you get a proof of payment certificate, receipt or something you can show event organisers?
I am told that if it is done with the BMFA renewal, then it will appear on the printable membership card.
John M

Here we go---https://www.caa.co.uk/Consumers/Unmanne ... e-flights/

OK Cliff - thanks
John M

just spoke to someone at bmfa
even if you have a bmfa A or B , you still have to register, but not take the test .

Yes, but if you are a BMFA member, you pay them the £9 with your next year's membership and they do it for you...


BC

yep that’s correct
we as a large club are letting the members do there own, as you can’t fly with us unless you have bmfa membership .
i remember when first started had to go to post office to get radio licence .

How does this affect someone who resides overseas but who may want to fly in the UK?

Ok, I can use a UK address to comply via BMFA, I wonder how someone holidaying in the UK and unaware of the "law" would go about enjoying a couple of hours peaceful slope soaring. You know, like we all used to do before the limitless scope for state nannyism and criminalising everything and everyone pervaded every aspect of our lives??

Terry W sent a note round last night from the National Trust saying no one can fly over their properties with ‘drones’ unless with the permission from the CAA and then only when authorised by NT, the mistrust is spreading?

Probably needs to be dealt with at national level

Can we take the test without paying since our subs need to go to LMA/BMFA?

M

I think the last question raises an important point - many lone slopers belong to the BMFA but do not have an A, B or C.
Presumably we have to take a test - but can that be delayed until our BMFA subs are due ?
If not, do we have to register with the CAA to take the test ?
If so, how does that affect our future registration via the BMFA ?
Paul

Also bmfa are bringing out a test if you haven’t got A, B, C . so you can take theirs, and the CAA will recognise it apparently .
i suppose it’s going to be the same as CAA test anyway .

I’ve just done the test, it took five minutes, I am now registered.

Will LMA and BMFA accept a forwarded email as proof? Will police accept the same as proof or come to that will anyone such as landowners etc accept an email. In these days of a ‘paper free world’ there isn’t much choice but to accept an electronic version?

Will our associations have a database or access to one to check our details against? It will certainly add to the workload of running the association unless it can be done automatically.

No doubt it will all come out in the wash and be as clear as mud!

Mark, from the information that has been passed on to me, I am told that by doing the test and registering with the CAA in person (rather that doing so through the BMFA, SAA, LMA etc), you have effectively signed up to permanently restricting your maximum altitude to 400ft. Are you sure that you really wanted to do that?
If I am wrong in this statement can anyone in authority correct me?
Brian.

Well if all else fails I’ll do it again via the LMA. There are no buttons to press or navigate with our membership details to bypass the payment to allow the cash to be paid via the national associations, seems rather daft to copy the test onto our association websites and then pass it to the CAA? Interesting to take the test though, seems to be aimed at drones use and is not aimed at those with more knowledge, questions are mainly about where to fly rather than how. I read the drones use pages and got full marks first time. This test is not about knowledge but justifying a governments stance and policies (otherwise called an arsecovering exercise).

My concern is that sooner or later there will be many more limitations imposed.

M

P.S. I have contacted the CAA and may have an answer to the query above soon?

MDev wrote: ↑07 Nov 2019, 15:12 Terry W sent a note round last night from the National Trust saying no one can fly over their properties with ‘drones’ unless with the permission from the CAA and then only when authorised by NT, the mistrust is spreading?

The National Trust website FAQ has included a statement about not allowing drones for at least three years.

Whist they may be able to stop you flying from their land, as far as I know, they cannot stop you flying over their land. As long as you do it within the law.

We do not own the airspace over our land.



BC

I earlier raised the question about where those without an A,B,C now stand.
Yes I realised that we would probably have to take the CAA test but I really wanted to know the implications.
Brian Sharp has been informed that by taking the CAA test you permanently sign away the right to fly above 400ft and obviously that's serious.
Of course that information has not yet been confirmed officially but until it has, I suggest those affected should wait.
Remember this is clumsy legislation written by people who don't know and don't care - so don't bet on being able to change your registration later.

In terms of being able to fly over land without permission, its all well and good until something goes wrong.
Your insurance will probably cover you if didn't have permission but where flying is expressly forbidden, I cannot see you have a leg to stand on.
As far as I know the point hasn't been tested in law - who wants to be the first ?

In terms of walking to a launch point along a public footpath (as a former rights of way professional) there is no case law as to whether a model is a 'usual acompanyment' i.e. something any member of the public could reasonably expect to take with them on a footpath. However you wouldn't stand a hope in hell arguing the point in court.

Paul

Sorry Barry,
but we do all own a certain amount of the air space above and the earth below our owned land. Many many years ago this was reckoned to be as far as he heavens above and below as far as the center of the earth. However in more modern times the law said it to be As high above and low below as to enable the property owner to work and play unhindered by others,(more or less) and there are a number of court cases to make a precedent to that. It is somewhat agreed that there is no fixed figure of ownership height, and it does seem to differ depending in which area you live in, but 500ft is often mentioned as being reasonable.
Therefor if one is proposing to launch from a footpath and then fly over adjoining 'no go' property one could be taken to court by the land owner.

I stand corrected....

BC

From the horses mouth, the LMA are undecided about what to do about exams and registering, they await their AGM.

There is nothing on the BMFA website that says we can only fly at height if the dres exam and registration is taken with them, the only bit you get is to wait until 31st January 2020 until doing so.

M

Yep, that’s what I said, you don’t have to take the exam with the BMFA but to take it and be a member!

M

Im sorry Mark but i am not understanding exactly what you are implying here. Is it me. can you be more specific for my little brain.

Terry, everybody who flies unmanned aerial vehicles weighing more than 250 grams has to register (and take the online test) and is limited to 400ft, but if you are a member of the BMFA, LMA, FPVUK, SAA then you have an exemption to fly above 400ft. You can do the CAA registration direct or via BMFA or LMA which will use your proficiency achievement instead of the online test.

FrankS wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 19:09 '.................. but if you are a member of the BMFA, LMA, FPVUK, SAA then you have an exemption to fly above 400ft..........'

You are referring to a CAA short term site specific exemption here, yes?

Yes Frank, I have understood most of that info for the past year. It was Marks replies to Cliffs two latest posts regarding the BMFA web site that I have not fully understood.

I was trying to get across that you can take the test but it’s the membership of the national associations that gives you the exemptions. The LMA say they are not taking note of the operators ID numbers so it’s up to the individual to comply.

I understand some members have been told their fees will be paid, the emails didn’t get this far south! Ten weeks to the deadline, when things need doing I like to get on and do it.

M

Thank you Mark.

MDev wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 23:00
I understand some members have been told their fees will be paid, the emails didn’t get this far south! Ten weeks to the deadline, when things need doing I like to get on and do it.

M

It got as far as Gloucestershire maybe that's the cut off from the affluent south

Didn't say if you could register through the LMA with a BMFA achievement cert though.

I'm in no rush to get registered and will wait until after all the organisation AGMs when hopefully there will be more clarity.

RobbieB wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 21:59

FrankS wrote: ↑13 Nov 2019, 19:09 '.................. but if you are a member of the BMFA, LMA, FPVUK, SAA then you have an exemption to fly above 400ft..........'

You are referring to a CAA short term site specific exemption here, yes?

Robbie this one https://rcc.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/ ... ision1.pdf which doesn't have a time limit and isn't site specific.

FrankS wrote: ↑14 Nov 2019, 08:12 Robbie this one https://rcc.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/ ... ision1.pdf which doesn't have a time limit and isn't site specific.

For some reason the BMFA haven't put the latest version of the 400ft permission on the rcc site. There is one dated 4/4/19 in the downloads area of the main BMFA website.

Ah yes, but the 7kg weight limit still applies. For one glorious minute there I thought that height limit had been revised for BMFA members.

Nice to see the 'above pilot and not terrain' rule has been changed - how ridiculous that would have been for slope flyers, like riding the big dipper.

Steve J wrote: ↑14 Nov 2019, 09:30

FrankS wrote: ↑14 Nov 2019, 08:12 Robbie this one https://rcc.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/ ... ision1.pdf which doesn't have a time limit and isn't site specific.

For some reason the BMFA haven't put the latest version of the 400ft permission on the rcc site. There is one dated 4/4/19 in the downloads area of the main BMFA website.

Yes, just noticed that, the only difference seems to be is the clarification on flying at full size fields with an air control tower or outside of normal operations.

A query- how much do the tugs weigh?

Anthony wrote: ↑14 Nov 2019, 10:477kgs......

In your dreams.....



BC

When I started this thread I was not intending to open the proverbial 'can of worms' - Apologies, looks like it's open !

Over time, some things do seem to be a little clearer, but, there's still a lot of 'fog' about...I'm even starting to worry about full-size gliding over other peoples' property ! Oh well, that's another story for another time...

Best regards to all,
Dave

Just had a reply from the CAA about a query:-

‘Thank you for your email, you should advise both LMA & BMFA that you will not need to be part of their bulk uploads as you have complete the process.

You only need one operator id.

Andrea Chew
Drone & Model Aircraft Registration Service
Civil Aviation Authority’

The only difference by going through the BMFA is they then have to pass on your details, the fee gets paid, you still register. I’m now off back to school and write out fifteen times my operator I.D. Number.....

M

I note that the CAA DRES website, which cost a reputed £4m, crashed yesterday. Suggestions that they would get 40,000 drone operators registering seem wide of the mark as 9000 have registered so far. £81000 against an expected income of £360000, an expensive computer system?

How many years will it take to cover costs as the government has suggested, no doubt the expense will be written off against the public’s tax?