Source for Factory Drawings for Rheinland FVA-10b

[mikeyc38]

Hi All
I'm just asking if anyone knows if copies of the factory drawings for the Rheinland FVA10-b are available?
I already have the Martin Simons Eqip book "Sailplanes 1920-1945", QFI references. Mick Moore plan and the Flugzeugtypen Volume 5.
I am trying to work out if the fuselage cross sections are perfect ellipses (A:B) or if they are compound curves.
Planning to draw in CAD and scale to 1/3.5 (giving a span around 4.25m) so that I can cut parts on my CNC.
This makes the accuracy of the drawing critical if one is to get consistent parts.

Any help or suggestions appreciated

Regards
Mike Campbell

[Cliff Evans]

Hi Mike. Have a look at Page 4 of the pdf attached. This is probably the most accurate as Hans Jürgen is credited to have been involved with it.

Could we have a copy of the plan for members when done please.

Flugzeug 1998_2, 1998_5, 2000_1 - FVA 10b Rheinland.pdf

(16.59 MiB) Downloaded 121 times

Also, you make get an idea of their shape from some pictures of the kit displayed here: http://www.m-ohlwein.de/rohinh_rhein.htm

[RobbieB]

Mike, a favourite technique for fuselage cross sections from this era was to combine two separate half ellipses a common minor axis to produce the shape the designer required. This could well be the case with some or all of the Rheinland's formers.

A simple test would be to try and reproduce the shapes shown in Cliff's PDF with a single ellipse drawn in your CAD programme.

True ellipse, compound ellipse or compound curves, having seen a few Rheinland models over the years and the full size restored machine, only you would know the difference to be honest and creating them from set geometrical forms is by far the easiest - not least of which is how much easier it is to get the transitions correct.

[Paul_Williams]

Mike,
the Rheinland was 16m span, so at 1/3.5 that works out at 4.571m.
Mike Beech who restored the Rheinland, told me that no original drawings survived the war. Incidentally, Chris Wills told me that drawings of the similar FVA.11 Eifel did survive but I don't know where they are- Aachen presumably. Given the way that prototypes were built at that time, its entirely possible that the Eifel used the same fuselage frames. Length was slightly less than 200mm longer than the Rheinland.

Michael Olwhein told me that his cockpit detail was from modern photos or invented.

Do you wish to build the prototype FVA.10a with flat bottom fuselage or the production FVA.10b ?

Fischers drawings also appeared in the softback Flugzeugtypen Volume 5 Sailplanes 2 it contains 3 photos of the prototype, 4 of the production type and 3 of the restored glider.

60 Jahre Flugwissenschaftliche Vereinigung Aachen (1920) e.V. contains 9 photos of the prototype, only two of the 10b and one of the restored glider
(also 4 of the Eifel).
One photo of the prototype shows the fuselage and wings framed up but not yet ply covered. However the fuselage is quite different to the production 10b. There is a photo of the surviving 10b in 1952 with the wings uncovered - useful.

Assuming you are going for the 10b, you easy option is to model the glider as it is now restored and there are plenty of photos of it. If you want to model one as originally built, beware ! Although only 29 FVA.10b were built, there are significant differences in the cockpit canopy and instrument panels. Some canopies were nicely moulded, others were faceted with flat panels like the restoration. Some had wooden framing with external metal frames, some only the metal frames.

The restored 10b is curently on display as the Wasserkuppe museum and one other survives in poor condition, in storage, in a Polish museum.

The Rheinland is a delightful sailplane with elegant lines a great performance. I have helped to rig it several times and watched a world class pilot in a Libelle being dramatically outclimbed by the Rheinland in weak condition, thermalling at an insanely low speed.

If I can help in any way, please PM me.
Paul

[mikeyc38]

Hi Mike. Have a look at Page 4 of the pdf attached. This is probably the most accurate as Hans Jürgen is credited to have been involved with it.

Could we have a copy of the plan for members when done please.

Flugzeug 1998_2, 1998_5, 2000_1 - FVA 10b Rheinland.pdf

Also, you make get an idea of their shape from some pictures of the kit displayed here: http://www.m-ohlwein.de/rohinh_rhein.htm

Hi Cliff
Many thanks for the drawings attached. They seem to be similar to the ones I have in the Flugzetypen document but better drawn.
I also have the links to the M Ohlwein website - amazing build

Of course I will share the plans once a prototype is built

Kind Regards
Michael

[mikeyc38]

Mike, a favourite technique for fuselage cross sections from this era was to combine two separate half ellipses a common minor axis to produce the shape the designer required. This could well be the case with some or all of the Rheinland's formers.

A simple test would be to try and reproduce the shapes shown in Cliff's PDF with a single ellipse drawn in your CAD programme.

True ellipse, compound ellipse or compound curves, having seen a few Rheinland models over the years and the full size restored machine, only you would know the difference to be honest and creating them from set geometrical forms is by far the easiest - not least of which is how much easier it is to get the transitions correct.

Hi Robbie
In my first attempts, I scanned and traced the martin Simons drawing - tracing at full-size - no problem with cad because you can then scale down to anysize you want but could not get the cross sections correct.
Oh well wish me luck on attempt number 3 with drawing the fuselage in 3D and using the software lofting tool...
Kind Regards
Michael

[mikeyc38]

Mike,
the Rheinland was 16m span, so at 1/3.5 that works out at 4.571m.
Mike Beech who restored the Rheinland, told me that no original drawings survived the war. Incidentally, Chris Wills told me that drawings of the similar FVA.11 Eifel did survive but I don't know where they are- Aachen presumably. Given the way that prototypes were built at that time, its entirely possible that the Eifel used the same fuselage frames. Length was slightly less than 200mm longer than the Rheinland.

Michael Olwhein told me that his cockpit detail was from modern photos or invented.

Do you wish to build the prototype FVA.10a with flat bottom fuselage or the production FVA.10b ?

Fischers drawings also appeared in the softback Flugzeugtypen Volume 5 Sailplanes 2 it contains 3 photos of the prototype, 4 of the production type and 3 of the restored glider.

60 Jahre Flugwissenschaftliche Vereinigung Aachen (1920) e.V. contains 9 photos of the prototype, only two of the 10b and one of the restored glider
(also 4 of the Eifel).
One photo of the prototype shows the fuselage and wings framed up but not yet ply covered. However the fuselage is quite different to the production 10b. There is a photo of the surviving 10b in 1952 with the wings uncovered - useful.

Assuming you are going for the 10b, you easy option is to model the glider as it is now restored and there are plenty of photos of it. If you want to model one as originally built, beware ! Although only 29 FVA.10b were built, there are significant differences in the cockpit canopy and instrument panels. Some canopies were nicely moulded, others were faceted with flat panels like the restoration. Some had wooden framing with external metal frames, some only the metal frames.

The restored 10b is curently on display as the Wasserkuppe museum and one other survives in poor condition, in storage, in a Polish museum.

The Rheinland is a delightful sailplane with elegant lines a great performance. I have helped to rig it several times and watched a world class pilot in a Libelle being dramatically outclimbed by the Rheinland in weak condition, thermalling at an insanely low speed.

If I can help in any way, please PM me.
Paul

Hi Paul
Many thanks for your very useful post. It is the FVA 10b I will be modelling. Thank you for the offer of additional help if required

My thanks to everyone's speedy replies to my post
Kind Regards
Michael