Scale Soaring UK

Hello all,
I found this old B&W photo of a Minimoa on the Schempp Hirth website. I am having problems deciphering what the colour scheme is on it and I would appreciate your opinions as I'm not finding anything else on the internet.


Thanks in advance,
Ian

Ian,

The name on the side suggests Cheminitz which is a city in the Dresden/Saxony area of Germany. The colour schemes of German sailplanes from this era were usually region dependent and if this one follows that convention then it would be white and green for Dresden.

The band on the fin and rudder frequently indicates an attempt to obliterate the swastika that would have been painted there, quite often done later in the printing/publication stage and might be in the original red or even black.

I'm sure Vince will be along soon with a much more accurate and in depth explanation.

Thanks Robbie, Do you know if the green is an RLM colour? I'm assuming the tail number 23 has to be white since its so highly constrasted and the rest of the airframe would be ivory & doped linen?


Cheers,
Ian

Would the front of the fuselage be white too? seems to be a highly contrasted colour also.

Ian

There is no white on the glider, except the competition number. See this page from the original site for the colour of the D-7-.... region

Like this??



BC

Whatever the colours, the front of the fuselage is significantly lighter than the rear.

Perhaps this might clarify it a little better:



...............and from a VGC article by Chris Wills from the 1980's:

It looks not dissimilar to the Rhonadler's colour scheme...

RobbieB wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 23:20 Whatever the colours, the front of the fuselage is significantly lighter than the rear.

Perhaps this might clarify it a little better:


data_scan.pdf



...............and from a VGC article by Chris Wills from the 1980's:


data_scan2.pdf

Thanks for sharing the articles. That really clarifies things. Should be a very attractive and interesting scheme. I am assuming it would be RLM 25 Bright Green which seems close to grass green. With all the different colour combinations, there should be enough choices to keep everyone happy. Now to find an interesting scheme for a Kranich!!

Thanks again to all

hi Ian
are you building the mo2a ?

Ian, here is the full article that the second extract was taken from - it might be of interest to you.

Full acknowledgment must go to the late Chris Wills and the VGC.

Strangely enough, this information has been on our website for over 15 years

https://scalesoaring.co.uk/colours-and- ... s-1922-45/

Hi Mick,
My Minimoa is the single seat Go3 version. I always like to do unique and unusual colour schemes if possible. I was going to do the one below but someone had beaten me to the punch. Thanks to Robbie and Vince, this Minimoa is from the Nuremburg region although strangely the registration is from Stuttgart

Just returned from holiday and spotted this thread.
I was a very junior contributor to the original VGC article on German Glider markingsa scary number of years ago and also have a broader interest in Luftwaffe types.

As far as I know, there are no original paint samples from German gliders of the era when the fuselages were colour painted to identify the region.
I don't think that anyone has ever established that the colours were the same as any of the RLM colours and indeed the NSFK colours from 1937 were different to the Luftwaffe colours, at least until 1940/41 (ish).

The early regional colours were changed between 1935 and 1936 and its not known whether the paint was entirely removed or simply overpainted.
Overpainting one colour with another will also significantly change its apparent shade.

Be warned that when looking at online paint charts, there are significant differences between computer monitors that render this type of reference almost useless . Different print runs of the most respected book on Luftwaffe colours show radical differences between the shade of the paint chips - its a nightmare. Its also known that there were noticeable differences between batches of paint. No easy answers I'm afraid.

A bit beyond your actual question but I mentioned to Cliff that as regards markings rather than colours - the original VGC article was based largely on
documents and in those days few photos were available for study. Its now apparent that there were a very significant number of exceptions to the specified font and size of numeric markings i.e. D-10-125. So its always best to model a glider that you actually have a photograph of.
Note that even in the NSFK era, some glider flew without registrations and some only had a registration on their rudders -some on fuselage and rudder. In fact I have photos of gliders with different registrations on their fuselage and rudder ! This was probably the result of crunching the rudder when packing the hangar and using a replacement from a wreck !
Paul

Which reminds me of an amusing situation from way back in the hedy days of scale glider static judging.

The colour of our models were, of course, being judged against the output of a photo processing lab and not necessarily (and in most cases, almost certainly) the actual colour of the original.

In the case of my Gull 3, it was of particular amusement to me when I got continually marked down on colour, the model actually having been sprayed with paint from the same tins that Mike Beach, the owner and restorer of the original full size Gull very kindly gave me! If only we'd have had Photoshop in those days.............

That's a tough ruling Robbie, I share your pain !

Our models are of course relatively large scale. However, it is accepted that for smaller scales like model railways, using the original paint 'looks wrong' and should really be compared to the real thing when viewed from a distance that gives the illusion of similar size. The effect is to soften and reduce the brilliance of the colours. This is particularly evident when looking at the garish colours of WW1 lozenge camouflage which from a distance merge to give a soft effect.

Incidentally, it looks as though the original NSFK 'ivory/cream' colour known as FAS1 was later replaced by an RLM shade but so close as not to be apparent when viewing one glider in isolation. Some years ago I was sent a digital copy of a German magazine which (if I remember correctly) had an article on different coloured flying helmets of glider pilots ! This contain half a dozen very high quality colour photos in the 1936-45 period and where there were two or more gliders in the image, a definite difference in the ivory/cream could be seen. Unfortunately my computer managed to lose the file and I do not know which magazine it came from - can anyone help please ???
Paul

It is almost impossible to compare colours from that period due to
a) the type of film being used
b) the processing
c) digitising for computer display
d) you own computer screen set up

I have quite a number of photos from that period in colour, but I could not be brave enough to tell what the Exact colours are. Examples attached

The other problem was gliders were painted for the region they first served, but when moved to a different region, they commonly kept their original paint scheme and only the registration was changed. See the Grunau Baby with D-10 register, which should be in Black and White scheme

I completely agree with Vince's comments about period colour film and monitors
However I'm going to slightly disagree about the colours of the D-10- Grunau Baby in the post.

The 'regional' colours and 'named registrations' such as D- Munchen, were superseded on 17 April 1937 by all over ivory FAS.1 and numeric registrations such as D-10-125. So the Grunau in Vince's post is actually correctly painted.

From 17 April ALL gliders SHOULD have been repainted in FAS.1 but its clear that some simply had the name removed and the numeric registration added, whilst retaining their regional colours. We don't know how common this was but I think that none of the sailplanes at the 1937 Rhon carried regional colours (please correct me if I'm wrong !) It's not clear how long these unauthorised regional colours remained in use after April 1937, possibly only to their next C of A or major overhaul. Of course its possible that in some areas they continued to paint regional colours onto FAS.1 sailplanes but as so few glider photos can be dated, tat has not been established.

Its interesting to note that I have never seen any photos where the original name can be seen under the FAS.1 paint.

The regional colours were applied to sailplanes capable of cross country flights but not usually to the primary gliders which made up the vast majority of the German fleet before 1937. High performance mass produced types such as the Minimoa and Rhonadler only began appearing in 1935 in quite modest numbers.

Vince's photos also reveal another interesting detail - compare the Swastika on the Grunau Baby and Minimoa with the very spindly version on the SG38.
As more photos become available we are able to see that the previous assumption that glider markings were very standardised and controlled, is not the case and there are as many variations as one sees with Luftwaffe powered aircraft.
Paul

This is turning into a Nerds Corner
What about these GB with a Swastika, but no red markings dated 1940, any thoughts as to why?

HA ! not nerds Vince - I suspect we are what CW calls the Scale Police

OK here we go........
First one should mention that the Luftwaffe asos operated gliders, apparently attached to some units but this does not seem to be well understood.
I don't know what markings were originally specified but from 1939 Luftwaffe gliders were also ivory (Elphenbein) and marked for Whermacht Luft with the regions designated in roman numerals and the glider number in aribic numerals i.e. WL-IV-45.

On 25 June 1943 an entirely new registration system was introduced such as the LD + SA in your photo
The gliders were still ivory but the red fin band and white disc was discontinued (although I suspect the red band was abandoned shortly after the outbreak of war by both the Luftwaffe and NSFK)

This new registration system has some ambiguities. Photos suggest that NSFK gliders used a dash - between the letters and Luftwaffe gliders a cross +
Around this time many NSFK gliders were moved into Luftwaffe control as a shortage of fuel began to make the use of glider training using the two seat Go.4 Goeviers and DFS Kranichs for basic pilot training.

Later in the war, gliders were to be camouflaged to minimise the dangers of attack from Mustangs roaming across Germany. There doesn't appear to be any standardisation - some had a sprayed mottle finish, some a wandering wave pattern, some had short streaks where rags had been dipped in paint and a few had solid patches of colour with gaps between them. The paint seems to have been whatever was locally available in the various RLM green and grey shades, often using two or more colours. Application was to cover the bright ivory of course. In many cases it only covered the top surfaces and fuselage top decking but in other cases it extended entirely down the fuselage sides.

The big difficulty in Luftwaffe/NSFK research, is that more than 80% of original documentation was destroyed so only some of the marking instructions are known. The rest is pieced together from photographic evidence, although as noted, photos are rarely dated.
What I can say is that after the German surrender, one could see gliders with D-10-125, occasional red fin bands, WL-IV-45, LD+SA, LA-AC
which shouldn't have been possible if all the regulations had been followed !!!!! The reality is that the Germans did NOT faithfully and promptly follow the appropriate regulations, there were as many exceptions as there were compliance.

To further muddy the waters, a colour photo which I am not permitted to reproduce, shows that t least two Luftwaffe sailplanes from 1938 were painted grey but there might have been unique - unless someone has other colour photos to show otherwise. Monochrome photos of those two gliders look as if they were ivory and I would have bet my house on that - it shows how difficult photo interpretation can be.

Hopefully this is of some use to the half dozen other nerds / scale police/ accuracy enthusiasts who like to get things right !
Meanwhile does anyone have any photos of the 13m Habicht in camouflage ???? (rather than Stummel Habicht)
Paul

Hi Cliff,
thanks for the drawings which I have seen before but unfortunately I believe those colour schemes are completely fictional.
As far as I know, there are no photographs to verify them.
The very few photos that do exist of the Stummel Habicht, show a substantially different paint scheme.

The Habicht and Stummel Habicht intrigue me as the few surviving documents suggest that far fewer were built than actually planned.
From the middle of the war the reduced span Stummel Habicht was used to train Me.163 rocket fighter pilots to make gliding spot landings. However some 13m Habichts were also used but I can't find any photos of the camouflaged ones. Help !

Paul

A very big thank you to everyone and here is the end result. Still have to apply the tail number as the sign maker didnt get the font right and after looking at the photo closely, it looks like the green extends all the way onto the lower rudder.

Thanks again,
Ian

Well done Ian, its so nice to see a sailplane in the prewar colours
A launch queue in the mid 1930's must have been a colourful sight.

Paul

Hi Paul,
Thank you for the compliments and for you help. I have a Kranich II I'm planning on doing another pre war regional colour scheme. Robbie and Vince have been a wealth of information and I have eventually found a photo of one that seems to be in either a blue/white or green/white scheme. After that it'll be another Minimoa in a white/blue scheme.
I found a photo of the Stummel Habichts and it seems like the colour drawings are pretty close. Hope this helps out.

Best regards,
Ian

Thanks for the Stummel photo Ian - at higher resolution the colour scheme is a bit different to the drawings.
I've also sent you a PM.
Paul

Hi fellow scale nerds !
The best information that I can find about the 1935/36 glider colour markings is not very helpful.
There is no known standard colour specifications, nor any specified supplier - consequently it looks like the specific shade of green (for example) might vary from one glider to another.
What can be said with certainty is that the colours were NOT taken from the RLM colour range as they did not exist at that time.
On the upside, no one can say that your model is painted incorrectly ! unless Vince has any colour photos - but was colour available at that time ???
Paul

Lots of colour photos Paul, they were certainly available, here is one with the colour mentioned

Cliff
We need to be careful of not comparing apples and pears.
I know Bernd and I am sure his colour swatch matches RLM Hellblau
As a colour reference I use the definite work by Michael Ullmann and I know Bernd has a copy of that.

My point was that there is no document that says the Hellblau paint required by the 1935/36 regulations was the SAME as RLM Hellblau.
Go to B&Q and get a paint chart from several paint manufacturers and see what each one calls beige or blue, all very different shades.
To define a paint you need a colour specification and non exists for 1935/36 colours.

The Mu13 colour photo MUST date from after April 1937 as it has a numeric registration. The colour is very probably earlier and does indeed look like Hellblau. But that does not tell us that the Hellblau on the two seat Minimoa was defintely the same shade (unless there is a Minimoa colour photo that I do not know of).

One of the 1935/36 colours is Grau....what shade was that ? because RLM 02, RLM 11, RLM 41 were all called Grau.
In 35/36 there was also Brick Red but no such RLM colour exists, further emphasising that many and perhaps all of these colours cannot be assumed to be precisely the same shades as the RLM colours.
Note that Akaflieg Munchen might have had access to some Luftwaffe paint ! and represent an exception rather than the rule - we don't know,

I would repeat my question - are there any colour photos of the 1935/36 glider colours. Apart from grey or silver grey, I haven't seen any but there might be plenty that I haven't seen. It would be great if you have some that you can show us Vince.

Of course I am taking a very pedantic view and saying we need real evidence to know what these colours really looked like.
I am quite happy to have evidence prove me wrong.
Most modellers will just select what looks correct and just get on with it - all power to them.

Paul

I don't believe "apples and pears" come into the conversation.

The photo I added was close enough ( within a year or 2) to the era of the implementation of RLM colours. The RLM colours logically would not just appear from nowhere as someones imagination, but would be based on existing colours already in use.

You sayTo define a paint you need a colour specification and non exists for 1935/36 colours[, however a reference of colours for 1935/6 does exist in the book "The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft 1935-1945"

Apologies to readers who don't believe in scale finish

Vince - as I do not have a copy, can I ask if the Monogram book actually states that gliders in 1935/36 were painted in specific RLM colours ?

Ullmann's and every other reference I know of, are silent on glider colours of 1935/36. Experts in the field tell me that no documents have been found, identifying the precise shades or referencing them to the RAL standard colour definition system.

Of course I appreciate that the RLM colours didn't appear out of thin air.
The RAL colour system was established in 1927 by the Reichsausschuss fur Lieferbedingungen (RAL) to recommend a restricted number of colours for general use. Initially there were 13 basic colours and 27 more created by mixing them. The number of colours expanded rapidly and by the end of 1930's there were more than 100 shades.

Ullmann lists 44 RLM colours used 1935 -45 but for example 4 of those colours only appeared later in the war. Luftwaffe camouflage changed significantly in 1938 and I believe many of those colours did not appear until after that date.

If we look at the colours gliders were to be painted - by paint name....
RLM 21 is Weiss (white) as is RLM 67 but they are quite different shades - as are the following...………….
02, 11, 41, 42 are all called Grau
62, 72, 73 are Grun
04, 27 Gelb
65 (1938), 65 (1941), 77, 78 are all Hellblau.
The fact that the first 65 Hellblau, is qualified as 1938 makes me wonder if an RLM Hellblau existed earlier or not ? Personally I have no idea.
Blau was a colour gliders were to use but does not exist in the RLM range, nor does Ziegelrot (brick red)

I hope this proves the point I was trying to make (perhaps I could have explained it better) which is that we do not KNOW what exact colours gliders were painted in 1935/36.
It proves that two of the colours were not available as RLM colours and proves that other paint colours and shades were available at that time.

There are two possibilities ……….
None of the colours were identical in shades to the RLM colours.
Or
Most of the colours were identical to the RLM colours, with two additional rogue colours- Blau and Ziegelrot.
But if RLM colours were to be used- WHICH of the four Grau, three Grun, two Weiss, two Gelb ???????
Because we have no document specifying which shades were to be used - the answer is, that at the moment we just don't know.

Incidentally, experts acknowledge some Luftwaffe fighters in 1935/38 were painted a shade of Grau which is definitely different to any of the official RLM shades.

As regards the Mu.13 photo - I did agree that it looks like Hellgrau - whether that was the shade we know as 65 is open to question but I personally think it was. However one photo does not prove that this shade of Hellblau was used on ALL gliders of this period or that is was mandatory to do so.
This makes it all the more important to find period colour photos to provide more evidence - even though such photos are not colour true and deteriorate with age, they are the best we can do.

I hope that I have shown that my view is logically based on the most up to date published information that I am aware of.
I'm more than happy to be proved wrong by good quality evidence because that way we find the truth of the matter.

Paul

Cliff
yes the Luftwaffe did use some Mu.13s for training but none of them had the early multi-coloured markings, for the simple reason that series production of the Mu13 didn't start until AFTER the colour registration system had been superseded by cream and numeric registrations. From 1937 Luftwaffe gliders were cream, like civil gliders.

I realised that we have all automatically assumed that the Mu.13 colour photo shows a paint scheme from 1935/36, so I thought it should be examined more closely.

I have already agreed that the colour photo shows Hellblau but what does that really tell us ?

The numeric registration proves the photo was taken after April 1937.
We know a colour called Hellblau was to be used in 1935 BUT ONLY for region 2 / Stettin and there it was to be applied to the WHOLE fuselage.
You will note the photo has a white nose.

There is NO two tone region that uses Hellblau in 1935. The nearest similar marking is area 13 Nurnberg, which was Weiss/Blau - white nose and blue fuselage - but as you firmly point out, the colour photo shows Hellblau NOT blue.
So the glider in the colour photo does not comply with the 1935 regulations.

It gets better.....
In 1936 Hellblau is not used for ANY region. The Stettin Hellblau colour was to be repainted Blau overall (emphasising that Hellblau and Blau are different colours). The Weiss/Blau of Nurnberg was now to be repainted as Weiss/Grun - so even if the Blau looked like Hellblau, it should have been overpainted before the numeric registration was added.

On the above evidence, the colour photo shows a Mu.13 in a non-standard colour scheme that was painted after April 1937, which is relatively rare but not unknown.

Lets look at this a different way - what is the identity of the glider in the photo ????
To my eye it looks like a standard short fuselage Mu.13d but according to the documentation here on SSUK, the Mu.13 did not enter series production until 1939 but I haven't seen a source for that quote. We do know that there were three Mu13s at the 1937 Rhon, two in 1938 and 9 in 1939. So it seems more likely that production started late in 1938 after the colour era.

The prototype Mu.13 was D-Atlante which flew in 1935, its hard to tell the colour but the nose looks slightly darker than the fuselage but it could be an illusion. This would be consistent with the Munich area in 1935 - Blau/Weiss. Unfortunately photos in 1936 look all one pale colour, even though it should have been Grun/Weiss.

Merlin the second prototype did not fly until the early summer of 1936. At an unknown date it was converted to motor glider with the glider registration D-14-127 - Munich region. Interestingly the fuselage is obviously coloured overall and could well be Hellblau but there are only b/w photos.

Atlante flew in the 1936 and 37 Rhon competitions and was progressively modified with its flaps removed, a new rudder, different dihedral etc.
I do not know its later numeric registration (help anyone ?). However I do not see any evidence to suggest the colour photo is Atlante and the colours are of course all wrong.

There appears to have been a third prototype as there were three Mu.13's at the 1937 Rhon. Apparently these were Atlante, Merlin and one other.
The name of number three is unknown but we do know the regions they came from and the colours for 1935 and 1936.....
8 Grun/Weiss Blau/Weiss
14 Blau/Weiss Grun/Weiss (flown by Schmidt this is probably Atlante)
15 Rot/Schwarz Grun/Gelb

None of these colours are compatible with the white nose/hellblau fuselage in the colour photo.
As it looks like these were the only Mu.13's flying before April 1937, the colour photo is not compatible with any of these scheme from 1935/36.
it must be a later non standard scheme.
So we have two strands of evidence to that effect and - it probably was to support our assumption that the glider was painted in 1935/36.

So what do we know about 1935/36 colours ? not a lot.
We know the names of the colours but not their exact shades.
Were they the same as the RLM colours ? we don't know.
If they were the same as the RLM colours - we don't know which of the different shades they relate too. Indeed, some of the shades were never used by the RLM/Luftwaffe.
In 1935 the colour Hellblau is specified but we do not know that is the precisely the same shade as RLM Hellblau 65. It probably was but we don't know that.

I think that I have demonstrated that the Mu.13 colour photo is probably later than 1937, so we have NO colour photos of any 35/36 gliders
(can anyone help ?) and nothing to confirm what shade of Hellblau was used.

In the absence of documents connected to colour specifications and colour swatches or any colour photos, the best modellers can do is to use intelligent guesswork - and in this informational vacuum, I have no problem with that. Its all we can do at the moment.
If we can identify which region a glider comes from, then we can find the colours and try to interpret b/w photos and then relate them to RLM paints (if that's your call). However with so many similar RLM paint shades, lets accept that we are guessing. Of course you can accurately match your paint to an RLM colour swatch but to get to that point uses a lot interpretation with the Mk.1 Eyeball. I have personally been stunned when seeing a colour image of a scene I already knew well from b/w images, to find the aircraft were a totally different colour to that deduced by the experts (with who I agreed).

Apologies for such a lengthy and pedantic thread but you have to look at the evidence very carefully.
Actually colours are not my thing and a complete PIA.
Best I can do is to point out the current lack of facts, make people question what they are looking at and hope someone with better information can enlighten us all.

Paul

Despite proof reading I managed to garble one sentence - should read...…….

So we have two separate strands of evidence that completely undermine our assumption that this glider was originally painted in 1935/37.

Paul

If the Mu13 photo isn’t before 1937, what about the Minimoa colour photo earlier in the thread and also the two seater Minimoa ?

Photo © by Archiv H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

VinceC wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 17:52 This is turning into a Nerds Corner
What about these GB with a Swastika, but no red markings dated 1940, any thoughts as to why?

Drawing © by H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

Thank you Habs-Jürgen for posting those lovely photos

Vince,
as you say this has become a nerds corner but such forensic study is the only way we get to establish the truth of the matter.
The article on German glider markings on SSUK came from the VGC and was written around 40 years ago and I had a tiny input to that.
However it needs to be appreciated that was long before the internet and hardly any photos had been published - sharing photos was very difficult. So there was no pool of information to draw from
.
The register of 'named' gliders and the numeric register (D-10-125) were lost during the war and a data base is slowly rebuilding it, adding a few every week. It was long assumed that D-10-125 was the 125th glider in district 10 but my recent analysis suggests that multiplied across all the districts, this would give more gliders than were ever built in Germany. So it looks like the 125th registration in the whole country - that is the 125th NSFK registration, as many were registered WL Whermacht Luft. The number of known registrations is still too small to consider this an established fact.

I think its time to try to set the record straight (as far as we can at the moment) and a better article on makings will be a much easier read than this discussion !!! thankfully.

I am delighted to see Hans Jurgens photos -many thanks indeed. More samples like this are the evidence we need.
I will answer the points raised by Graham, Hans Jurgen and your query about the Habicht fin band in separate posts as quickly as I can, although it is interrupting this splendid building weather.
Paul

Graham raised the point about the colours of the Minimoa 2a Moswoa two seater and I also failed to answer Cliffs point as well.

The Mozwoa was built in 1937 and it was a rush to finish it for the 1937 Rhon that started on 25th of July. The all cream/numeric registrations were introduced on 1 April and the Mozwoa appeared in varnished ply - no colours. It remained like that until it was repainted around winter 1941 and of course at that time RLM paints would have been used. So it does not show pr-war colours. For more info see Vinces splendid drawings and article elsewhere on this site.

I have now established that the prototype D-Atlante became D-14-150, so its definitely not the Mu.13 in the colour photo.

Its worth mentioning that we almost never know what numeric registration a named glider changed to. Nor is there a cross reference for the change from numeric to four letter codes - this is not easy.

Now that Hans Jurgen has provided two more Minimoa colour photos, I will deal with all three in a separate post.
Paul

Thanks to Hans Jurgen and IJNoble. we now have three colour photos of Minimoas.

The numeric registrations date all three to post April 1937.
D-8-61 carries the competition number 14 from the 1938 Rhon and D-17-1013 competition number 31 also from the 1938 Rhon.
Neither of those Minimoas has a rudder mass balance which I believe were a later mandatory modification but this can be seen on D-15-695, so its reasonable to assume that photo is later than summer 1938.

Can the paint scheme be earlier ?
The prototype Minimoa flew in 1935 and looked quite different to later ones (see Vinces great drawings in the SSUK article - Oh link not working ?)
Several more distinctive prototypes were built into spring 1936 - so we can eliminate the 1935 colours.
It isn't known how many 'standard production' Minimoas were built in 1936 and 37 but 5 appeared at the 1937 Rhon, so a guess would be 5-10 by April 1937.

For 1936 the colours should have been D-8-61 Blau/Weiss
D-15-695 Grau / Gelb
D-17-1013 No colours for 1936 as Region 17 did not exist until April 1937

Warning - Luftwaffe paint experts (nerds that make me look normal ) point out that old colour photos did not necessarily capture the original colour, deteriorate and colour shift with age. The colour doesn't necessarily copy true when scanned and looks different from one computer screen to the next). Even by £50 copy of Ullmans definive work contains paint chips where RLM05 Elfenbein (that replaced the NSFK FAS.1 cream and was almost identical - is clearly the wrong colour !!!!

What we can say is that its unlikely we have three colour photos of the 5-10 Minimoas built before April 1937. In my opinion - none of these were.
It follows that the photos probably show RLM colours.

D-17-1013 My guess is Hellgrau L40/52, which was different to Hellgrau 63. Note the fully painted Rhonadler wing in the photo, the same colour ???????

D-10-61 Looks like Hellblau 65 although Hellgrau 52 is not an impossible interpretation.

D-15-695 I will stick my neck out and say definitely Hellblau 65

Unfortunately none of the three Minimoa and one Mu.13 colour photos, show 1935/36 colours, so we do not have a single example !!
In the past they have mislead us all.
However we can now say that we have four examples of coloured sailplanes CONTRARY to the regulations of April 1937.
That three of these are Minimoas might just be coincidence or perhaps initially the factory offered a colour option ? pure speculation.
I do note that two colour Kranichs can be seen in b/w photos of the 1938 Rhon.

My impression is that these were a very small minority but its still surprising to see them in heavily regulated Nazi Germany and maybe there is another story yet to be uncovered.

In the meantime - does anyone have more colour photos of multi coloured sailplanes please ?????
We cannot reach serious conclusions based on a sample of only 4 photos.

Paul

Jacobs Rhönadler
D-15-1015
Photo © by Archiv H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

DFS-Reiher III
Drawing © by H.-J.Fischer

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

Hans Jurgen, thank your for sharing the photos and great drawings.
I replied but my post vanished, so I am typing again !

Great Rhonadler photo but I cannot read the number for the region.
Was this the Rhonadler the wing seen in the other photo of the Minimoa ?
Or do you know the date ? It looks like the tail of a Rheinland 10b on the right so 1938 ?

The Reiher I first flew just before the 1937 Rhon.
Colour for this area would have been Gelb/ Weiss so again this is not an early colour

It is very interesting that all the colour photos show blue or blue/grey colours but no others.
Were unofficial regional colours quite common ???? and why do we not see other colours ?

You reminded me that I had not replied to a query by Vince earlier in the thread about Grunau LD+SA in which he said the photo was 1940 and why was there no red fin band.

Luftwaffe Regulation Notice No.5 of 30 January 1939 effectively ordered that the red band would not be used and the swastika in future would be black, with a white outline and a black border,
Note this would affect Luftwaffe gliders but not necessarily NSFK gliders.

At the same time the registration system for Luftwaffe gliders changed to WL instead of D and XII instead of 12......WL-X11-456
NSFK numeric registration continued.

On 23 April 1943 the registration system for NSFK and WL gliders changed to a four letter system the + in LD+SA indicated its WL but a dash as in
SN - DF would be an NSFK glider.

Sammelmittelung 2 of 15 August 1944 reminded people that the simplified markings of Balkenkreuz and Swastika - just simple black lines should be used noted that the older markings with borders (that took a lot of time and masking tape) were wrongly still being used. Which shows the order to simplify had been issued earlier.

So we can say with 100% certainty that the photo of LD+SA was taken after 23 April 1943 and probably rather later.
With so many crashed aircraft in the photo I did wonder if we were seeing gliders deliberately disabled at the end of the war.

Although resistrations help us say a photo must be AFTER a certain date - we cannot say the reverse - that one was taken BEFORE a certain date.
There were many gliders photographed in 1945 by th Allies with D and WL registrations and with red fin bands. These shouldn't have existed but they did.

Paul

Zitat von Paul Williams: "Great Rhonadler photo but I cannot read the number for the region"

das ist der Rhönadler mit der Kennung: D-15-1015

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen

Here are also 3 photos of a Minimoa
http://www.luftarchiv.de/segel/schempp_hirth.htm

Cliff,
the article on German glider markings was originally written by the Vintage Glider Club back in 1970's and I made a very small contribution to it at that time.
We have learned a heck of a lot in the 45 years since then and now have access to a lot more photos via the internet which didn't exist then.
But even today, we have quite a limited amount of reference material - I just did a rough count of known registrations ...…..

D-NAME 120
D-10-125 890
WL-IV-45 220
LD+SA 160

Total 1390

However, it should be realised that this figure inevitably includes a lot of double counting because all the D-NAME registrations would have acquired D-10-125 registrations. Likewise some D-10-125 later became WL registrations and (in theory) all D and WL registrations changed to LD+SA type.
There is no rosetta stone that tells us which became which.

I don't recall total glider production but off the top of my head its 14,000+ so at best we have only 10% of registrations and probably more like 8%
Does that matter ???
Yes, because most of those known registrations come from photographs and that shows what a small sample we have from which to judge how well the marking rules were followed and how often they were ignored. For example the colour photos used in this thread show that something was going on with blue/grey painted gliders when all should have been cream FAS.1. This is a new discovery for which there is no explanation at the moment.

The original article by the VGC was also influenced by the assumptions (held by all at that time) that gliders pretty much followed rules laid down for Luftwaffe aircraft but that is only half the picture - the defined fonts/typefaces actually used for registration numbers varied widely in style and varied dramatically in size - we now have photographic proof of this.

Note that this thread has not touched on the markings for gliders used by the troop glider training schools, which were different, the use of standard camouflage and finally the widespread us of overspray emergency camouflage later in the war as roaming Allied ground attack fighters became a
serious problem.

If there is the interest I can rewrite the markings article in the light of current knowledge - although it will always be a work in progress as new photos and documents are discovered.

Paul

Hi Hans Jurgen,
thank you for the link to the three Minimoa photos - I should have remembered them.

The two b/w photos are of Minimoa D-4-531 and the competition number 13 is from the 1938 Rhon.
Its maiden flight was 22.6.1937 which is after the end of the coloured registration system. However the b/w photo looks as though it MIGHT show the 1936/37 colours for region 4 Ocker / Weiss !!!!!

Colour photo of Minimoa D-7-2171 shows possibly a very high gloss Hellblau.
The relatively high registration number suggests this might be a mid production Minimoa, although that's just my opinion and we don't have enough registrations to be confident about that.

We now have examples of Mu13, Rhonadler and 4 Minimoas probably all in Hellblau, all apparently after 1937, with no real explanation.

Paul

Hello again all,
It's been awhile since I had looked at this thread and I am truly amazed by all the research everyone has done. I need to apologize for opening up this can of worms but at the same time I think all the hard work you all have put in needs to be archived as all the information that has come to light completely goes against the established rules concerning regional colour schemes.
As Paul says, what's the deal with the predominant white/blue Minimoas, Grunaus, Rhonadlers and Mu13? I have a couple of color photos of an white/blue Minimoa along with 2 B&W photos of another which I'm 99% sure is white/blue also.

Best regards,
Ian

I might have posted these previously

Hi Ian,
far from needing to apologise, your question certainly made me look at photos more carefully and more questioningly. In doing so, its overturned some long held assumptions.

The b/w photos of D-4-758 nd D-4- 788 certainly appear to be two more examples of white nose and hellblau rear fuselage that do not accord with the 1935/36 regional colours.

We now see five Minimoas with these colours, from several different areas. That's 20% of Minimoa production, so I continue to suspect this might have been a factory scheme.
We also see one Mu13 and one Rhonadler which conflicts with my theory, so it is also possible that these are post 1937 regional colours used in defiance of the NSFK regulations.

More photos needed. !!!!!

Paul

Looking through Peter Ockers book on Hans Jacobs, I spotted another colour photo of Rhonbussard D-15-818 with white nose and blue fuselage.
Also Kranich D-4-630 with a blue nose.
Other b/w photos might show further examples but with colour photos, we can at least be certain.

Paul

You would think so Paul, but colour rendition can be a problem

As you say Vince, we entirely agree that for many technical reasons, colour photos will not tell us the exact shade of a colour.

What I was trying to say, was that we can see the 'general' colour of these gliders and know that it was not one specified for their regions in 1935/35 and that the colour is in the same range as the other gliders from after April 1937, that are white/blue but should be overall cream FAS.1.

Rather than the exact colour, I am more intrigued by the fact that we aren't so far seeing any other colours.
Although its still a very small sample, these gliders were registered in several different regions - so it does look like some widely adopted marking that we currently know nothing about.

Paul

Hi Paul,
Any chance of sharing the colour photo of Kranich 630 with us on here?

Cheers,
Ian

here's a couple of B&W photos of 2 D-4-XXX Kranichs I found on the net, plus a good quality D-15 Minimoa

Ian,
the photo of Kranich D-4-630 appear on page 321 of Hans Jacobs Pionierleben im Flugzeugbau by Peter Ocker, well worth buying for the photos alone despite being in German as Jacobs designed many of the classic German gliders. It also benefits from great drawings made by Vince - all in all a quality production.

The book is copyright and that's something I prefer to respect, especially as I think it was self published - a huge financial risk. Its often forgotten that researchers spend decades acquiring photos and documents from many sources - some donated, some purchased. I doubt any researcher expects to make any money - breaking even is a bonus !!

Kranich D-4-556 - is an interesting photo. I think its possible these might be 1936/37 colours Ocker/weiss, although interpretation from b/w is iffy.
Kranich D-4-606 - difficult to see any colour
Minimoa D-15-9 ??? although this looks red, that wasn't permitted and I doubt its black - possibly dark green ? but not the early colours

In Peter Riedels Uber Sonnige Weiten (over sunlit spaces) there is a nice b/w photo of an early open cockpit Kranich D-14-220.
This could be pre April 1937 but just a few were built before then - the (apparent) colour is white nose and pale (Hellblau ?) but again it doesn't conform to any of the 1935/36 colours

Really we could do with a good article on the colour distortion made by the various b/w camera film available in Germany during the 1930's.
Its a subject with reasonable coverage for WW1 era aircraft but I don't recall anything for the 30's - do you know of anything Vince ??

Paul

Paul - As you know, I worked for Peter Ocker on the drawings for his book and he did send me quite a number of photos, but none in early colour, although I have them in the book.

I keep thinking of having a repository somehow for everyone to place their photos for all to access. It just seems a shame that many just sit on mine and others computers when all could make good use of them

Isn't that what the website is for???

BC

Barry, I have 12 GBytes of photos and data which is normally too big for a Forum/ website Server and goodness knows what else is available out there. Writing webpages to supply them would be out of the question. I am still thinking how it can be done

Vince that's a splendid idea but as you say, photos take up a lot of Gbytes.
I think we have very little idea of who has collections or how large they might be - my guess is a lot more than we think.
Indeed, will any museums share their collections and SSUK could do likewise ?

This IT stuff is all Greek to me but I am dimly aware that websites are not necessarily for ever, so if they can cross-feed somehow, the information will still exist in other locations.

It may be that as state run museums are under financial pressure to be self funding and are obliged to charge for reproducing their photos in books and I can say from personal experience this can be £30 per photo ! Whether they would/could give online access is a moot point.

Unfortunately all historic images are now seen as having a commercial value (as they aren't making any more of them !) and some significant collections have been bought up for that reason by groups like Almey.

Paul

I have asked a photographer friend to see if he can digitally analyze the photos and sent him a few samples. Will let you know what he comes back with.

Ian

These are just some of the books I have on my computer

A fantastically useful book collection Vince but I think many of them are still in copyright ?
Is there a way around that problem ?
Paul

Only my way. Our friend in Germany sent most

I'm currently working on an extensive rewrite of the existing SSUK article, although that requires a little more research.
The aim will be to make it easily readable for those who don't own an anorak or aren't fully signed up members of the scale police .

Surprisingly, I can find no answers to the following questions...……...

Did the Luftwaffe operate any gliders between 1933 and 1935 and how were they marked ?
Did the Luftwaffe operate any gliders between 1935 and 1937 - if so, did they use the civil glider regional colour markings or Luftwaffe markings ?
If Luftwaffe markings - what coding and what colour were the gliders - one of the RLM pale greys ?

Did the Luftwaffe operate any gliders between 1937 and 1939 when the WL registration was introduced ?
Logically they did and first carried NSFK D-11-125 style markings - but is that just an assumption ?
If individual gliders did transition from NSFK to WL registrations, did they retain their glider number i.e. the 125 of D-11-125 to become D-XI -125 ?
Were Luftwaffe gliders coloured FAS.1 cream or the near identical RLM.05 or , just possibly, one of the pale RLM grey shades ???? (colour photos ?)

We are told that WL relates to gliders used for training by the Luftwaffe - but - WHAT training exactly ?
Was it just a cheap method of power pilots maintaining their flying hours ? or structured training ?

Why are there WL registrations, when for example, the training schools for troop glider pilots used a different registration e.g. +S1 -3+
Many training school powered aircraft were painted in a variety of pale greys - so were the school gliders also grey ? as that would be incredibly hard to detect from b/w photos (not the time to discuss exactly which grey for the moment).

As can be seen, there is (as far as I know) a surprisingly lack of knowledge concerning Luftwaffe gliders and even how numerous they were.
Can anyone add any further information ?

Paul

Hi Paul,
Here are a couple of photos of Kranichs at Breslau

Regards,
Ian

This one seems to have a light coloured nose. Thought it was a shadow to begin with, but cant see any shadows cast by the pitot tube or venturii

Hi Ian,
I agree the Kranich nose is definitely coloured, light grey or light blue I would guess.

Nice Kranich shots at Breslau - and these show fairly typical WL markings although it should be noted that the font/typeface was not necessarily consistent. This raises another 'unknown' …… were glider markings allocated and painted on the airframe at the factory or after delivery to club/unit ?

My impression is that markings were added at the unit, as this would explain the differences we see in the size and font of the numbering.
It seems possible that units or areas made up their own paint stencils but I haven't ben able to look at sufficient photos to confirm or discount that theory.

What can be said is that there were a heck of a lot of non standard coloured paint schemes around after 1937, that theoretically should not have existed.

I'm currently doing a bit more research before writing an up to date guide on markings (being delayed by too many holidays )
At the moment I am looking for examples of gliders marked for the Schulen such as S1+ -3 (not necessarily for publication if anyone wants to PM me)

For a separate research project I am looking for a photo of one specific Kranich !!! WL-IX-365

Paul

Hi Paul,
Haven't found out anything on Kranich WL-IX-365 yet, but have found a photo of a Kranich D-1-302 in the common white/light blue scheme as seen on the Minimoas, Grunau Babies, Mu13 and Rhonadler. Not the best quality photo but just clear enough to make out the white nose and inboard wing panels.

Cheers,
Ian

Hi Ian,
another nice photo, where did you find that one ?
Certainly a white nose, the fuselage colour is hard to discern and looks lighter than the white disc of the swastika.
For those not familiar with the Kranich, what looks like a fuselage stripe is the shadow of the wing root.
The black square is a large hole into which the wing root is inserted.

I'm still working on the markings article but two holidays in quick succession are going to delay me a bit !
Paul

It is said that 110 Minimoa's were built but I am not entirely sure whether that includes the early prototypes which had a high wing or is just the standard production Minimoa, which may or may not include an unknown number of Minimoa 38 and one Minimoa 39. Can anyone clarify that ?

More than half the numeric NSFK type Minimoa registrations are known.
Something like 10-12 Minimoas were built during the era of multi colour fuselages and 'name' registrations but few of the names are known.

High wing prototypes
D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE
YR-AVP to Rumania but did it have or need a German name before export ?
One to Japan name unknown

Mid wing
D-STADT NECKARGMUND later D-14-790
D-CHEMNITZ exported to Argentina as D-ARGENTINA later CC-PIA

So there probably at least six unknown names...…….. help !

First part of German Glider Colours and Markings has been written and will appear in a few weeks as a separate thread.
That's assuming I don't get stranded on a cruise ship near Mexico
Paul

Hi Paul,
Hope you made it safely back to the UK and have survived the storms without damage.
Well, we know there was a D-Chemnitz II, and I believe there was a Chemnitz III also. I did see a sketch in a pre war german magazine with a Minimoa with Nobel-5 or 6 on it. It was in an all over dark colour
I found the photo of the white/light blue Kranich on Facebook. One of the Vintage Glider group members had posted it.
My friend who i had sent the black and white Minimoa photo with the officers standing by the nose, has completed the colour analysis and his results indicted that the nose was in the dark red/brown spectrum. So that would confirm the Ocher colour you said.
I'm looking forward to reading your article. Thank you for putting in the time and effort.

Best regards,
Ian

Hi Ian,
well the weather was a heck of a lot warmer is Miami/Belize and Mexico than it was here thanks
The return to Heathrow was pretty lively as vicious crosswind gusts nearly weather-cocked the 747 off the runway a second before touchdown but an equally strong correction saved the day. Three cheers for the captain !

I shouldn't have rushed a post before leaving for holiday and failed to check another excellent source, so here is a better list.

D-Goppinger Industrie flat sided fuselage - was sold to Japan
D-Goppinger Industrie was a replacement for the above and was a different airframe with oval fuselage ….so 2 with this registration.
YR-AVP sold to Romania
D-Stadt Neckargmund later D-14-790 (D-15??)
D-Chemnitz II is this actually D-Argentina ?? sold to Argentina
D-Chemnitz III D-7-122

Note that in Vom Wolf Zum Mini Nimbus, Peter Selinger also refers to D-Argentina AND D-7-122 as being D-Chemnitz III

D-Nobel II was a Rhonsperber and D-Nob l 5 was a Motor Baby. A Minimoa D-Nobel 6 sounds likely - any chance you can locate the source ?

So it looks like that we have identified 7 'named' Minimoas - so maybe another 3 or 5 to find !

Thanks for the feedback on the 'ochre' colour, most appreciated.
Paul

I hope these observations help

The Early Minimoa sold to Japan and flown by Wolf Hirth was not flat sided, it was oval, see photos

I have attached photos of the Romanian with writing on the side

D-Goppinger Industrie, a high wing Minimoa, was sent to Argentina as part of the South American Expedition in 1934 ( I have several photos, but can't find them at the moment) and I think it returned as Wolf Hirth wrote; "On the 26.6.1937 my good old Moazagotl goes to Berlin as Ludwig Hofmann has to fly it during the international contest It is not in good condition but it will do!". I believe it was registered as D-4-602

D-Argentina was a shoulder wing Minimoa as was D-Chemnitz II and subsequent

I found a couple of photos in Argentina

It also looks like D-Argentina is not a registration on the side, just Argentina

Vince, many thanks for sharing the photos which resolve some points and raise more questions !
It is amazing that the early history of the iconic Minimoa should still be so unclear.

You are absolutely right to point out that there is no 'D' in front of Argentina !!! everyone, including myself have just assumed it was a 'D' registration, even though all the photos show it was not.

The name on YR-AVP looks like LUNA BUCURSTILOR …….. I'm assuming that's a Rumainian sponsor ????

The Moazagotl was a 20m span, strut braced design and only one was built and registered D- Moazagotl later D-4-602, it was scaled down to 17m to create the Minimoa (Mini- Moazagotl), so I don't think Wolf Hirth could be referring to a Minimoa prototype.

Martin Simons and Manfred Krieg/Bernd Dieckmann state that D-Goppinger Industrie went to Japan, was sold there but soon destroyed in a crash.
They also agree that it appears that a second early Minimoa went to Japan.
If there really were two Goppingr IndustrieMinimoas, were the markings identical (i.e.so they don't prove there were one or two) or can any differences be detected in photos ?

Your Japanese Minimoa drawing is really interesting in that it shows the early shoulder wing, early cockpit but with an oval fuselage, whilst photos clearly show that D-Goppinger Industrie was slab sided (from the wing aft). Can I suggest this might represent the second Minimoa that went to Japan ?

Is it possible to enhance the fuselage area of the Japanese photo to see if the fuselage is oval of flat sided - maybe with a photo of D-Gopp as a comparison ?

Fascinating stuff Vince.
Paul
Can I ask if you meant that the white shoulder wing Minimoa photo with dark nose and stripe, went to Japan ?

If there were two Goppinger Industrie's, could this be the second

Here are 2 more Japanese Minimoas and a Japanese glider list in xls format

I am sure you know that the Minimoa was originally designed as the Gruanau 7, here is a document

Actually Vince, I am ashamed to say that I didn't know that the Moazagotl was designated the Grunau 7.
The Minimoa was of course inspired by the Moazagotl but to avoid confusion, the two types were entirely different design, being only superficially similar.

I assume the two Ki25s referred to in the Japanese glider list are imported Minimoas and that the note saying 'similar to Minimoa' is incorrect ?

Can you confirm that the light and dark Minimoa photos are definitely taken in Japan ?
The airborne photo of the light one seems to have a blob on the rudder which is I assume a swastika that has ben obliterated. The landing wheel can be seen so its not the first D-Goppinger Industrie which had a skid I think ? but I cannot see any name painted on it …… sprayed out maybe ?

I cannot see if the dark photo has a slab side like the first D-Goppinger Industrie - what's your thoughts ?

The light machine with dark nose and stripe - was that taken in Japan ? Maybe this is the third high wing airframe ?
It would be great if you could locate the photos of D-Goppinger Industrie in Argentina.

Great stuff
Paul

Just realized that as the gliding expedition to South America was in 1934, Hirth must have been flying the Moazagotl as D-Goppinger Industrie wasn't delivered until 1.8.1935
Paul

A key feature of the prototype Minimoa was its hanging control column. This is said to have been for Wolf Hirths benefit, to make access to the cockpit easier as he had one artificial leg. I don't know if there is an original source for this ?????
It seems far more likely that the hanging control column was used to reduce the length and weight of the control system and to allow a shallower fuselage because there was no need to route the torque tube under the seat or for bellcranks and pushrods running up to actuate the ailerons.
This system had been used in the earlier Lippisch Storch IX and the successful Stuttgart F1 Fledermaus of 1933 and Hirth would certainly have known of it.

The flat sided fuselage seems a retrograde step from the oval Moazagotl and might have been intended to reduce costs but with its contoured rear fuselage top decking, its doubtful that it achieved that.

The early Minimoas were noted for using split flaps for landing but in the photos I have seen, I cannot see them on D-Gottinger Industrie but there may be other photos ?

It is said that the prototype was delivered on 1.8.1935 in time for the Rhon competition.
The Minimoa appears in Flugsport for 21 August 1935 but strangely the photo montage has close ups of the flat sided prototypes rear fuselage and rudder, whilst other photos in th same montage show a DIFFERENT high wing prototype under construction with an oval fuselage. I looks as though the incomplete fuselage is sitting flush on the ground, which implies there was no wheel-box fitted, only a skid.

Incidentally the Rhon competition number 57 can be seen on the fin. In the entry list the registration is given as D-GOTTINGEN presumably an abbreviation. As the new registration system had just been introduced, the colour of each entry is given - and the Minimoa is quoted as rot/Schwarz or red/black. Looking at the photos everyone will say the nose is light but this discrepancy is caused by the way that 1930's photographic film 'sees' the colour red.

Paul

Paul,
There is a description of the top hung control stick arrangement for Wolf Hirth on the prototype Minimoa in Martin Simons’ The Worlds Vintage Sailplanes 1908-45 on page 109.
The text goes on to say that the arrangement was not popular and was abandoned in favour of the normal control system on all subsequent Minimoas.
There is a B/W photo of Wolf Hirth trying out the unusual control column arrangement with Martin Schempp looking on from behind.
I can scan & post if that would help.
Also included in the Minimoa section of the above book are B/W photos of D-4-531 it’s after a bungee launch, a pic of what is stated to be an early production Minimoa showing split flaps fully drooped & also a post-war air to air shot of D-10-921 with swastika removed from photo.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I had to buy a copy of Vintage sailplanes of the World, as my former Kranich is on p71 and I am the third person from the left lifting the fuselage, with Chis Wills on far left and my wife Lynne fixing the dolly in place
So scan not needed but the offer is much appreciated.

As you say the hanging control column being for Wolf Hirths benefit is mentioned but what I was curious to know, is whether there is any reference to that circa 1935/36 or whether its a myth that has sprung up to explain that curious feature.

Martin Simmons splendid book was published 34 years ago (!) and its always worth looking again as new material is always being discovered.

Paul

In Vom Wolf Zum Mini Nimbus, there is an incomplete of early Schemp-Hirth works numbers.
wnr 1-15 include 11 x Go.1 Wolf, 1 x Go2 and 3 x Minimoa

wnr
6 D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE flew 1.8.35 no wheel, high wing owned DVL Goppingen then to Japan 1935
11 ???????? flew 17.11.35 normal control column - high wing - to Japan Shizurn
14 YR-AVP flew 3.4.36 normal control column - high wing - to Roumania

From wnr 16 to wnr 122 only 12 gliders are known, 2 x Go.1 Wolf and 10 x Minimoa which creates an unfortunate gap in our knowledge.

wnr
20 D-15-790 flew 9.5.36 owned by Beuth- Schule Neckargemund so Presumably this was D-STADT NECKARGEMUND ???
32 D-Chemnitz III flew 29.7.36 to Argentina 25.11.36 as ARGENTINA
33 D-16 ???? flew 12.9.36
55, 56, 70, 71, 85, 86, 87 other Minimoas

123 curiously this is also listed as D-Chemnitz III and later D-7-122 Flew 7.5.37

As can be seen, there is nothing relating to the second D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE

Its difficult to reconcile this information with photos
wnr 6 D Goppinger Industrie high wing - no wheel - does not seem to have split flaps (I could be wrong here) presumably this is also the dark coloured glider in Japan, having had the nose resprayed.
wnr 11 is presumably the white glider with high wing and a wheel that went to Japan. Not known if it had split flaps.
wnr 14 YR-AVP high wing, wheel and photos show split flaps.

The second D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE had a pale (white ?) fuselage with a (red ?) stripe, high wing and a wheel - flaps not visible.
Is it possible possible that this also went to Japan and was wnr 11 ??

Flugsport photos in February 36 show a high wing Minimoa, with a wheel and split flaps - dark fuselage and lighter nose - unknown but presumably between wnr 17 and 19

Photos show D-STADT NECKARGEMUND had a mid-wing and also had split flaps

wnr 32 D- CHEMNITZ III was also mid wing with upper surface spoilers

Can anyone fill any gaps or correct this information ?

Paul

One especially interesting thing to come out of this thread is that the names/registrations D-GOPPINGER INDUSTRIE and D-CHEMNITZ III were not unique and that both names were used twice.

This poses several questions -

Could a unique registration D-NAME be reissued if a glider was written off ? or only if it was exported ? Currently, we don't know.
Alternatively, did this only happen because Wolf Hirth was avoiding a new registration fee ???

Any other examples of reissued names ?

Finally - Part 1 of German Glider Colours & Markings will be posted as a separate thread, today or tomorrow.
Paul

Earlier in this thread, photos of NSFK gliders in Elfenbein/FAS,1 ivory/cream finish, were posted, showing some sections of the fuselage nose painted blue/grey - apparently in contravention of the regulations.

50 years later, a pilot stated that this was in response to the difficulty of seeing gliders painted in Elfenbein, in the air and that this had led to at least one mid-air collision. The blue/grey marking was therefore adopted to counter this at his airfield. As yet, there is no other confirmation of this.
However registrations in the photos show that this practice was adopted in a number of different areas. Again its not known if this was formally authorised or an unofficial practice that was tolerated.

Work on German Glider Markings continues but is taking longer then expected as its generating even more new questions about fundamental issues.

Paul

Hi Paul,
My apologies again for prying open this can of worms! Its interesting that they painted the noses light blue grey rather than a more intense colour. At least it answers one of the many questions......

Best regards,
Ian

Hi Ian,
only just spotted your post - apologies for opening the a can of worms ??? On contrary - hours of endless fun - so endless that you might have noticed that I still haven't posted the promised piece on German Glider Markings, as every time I find an answer to some point, it kicks of several more questions. However, I'm getting close to getting something out there and exposing it to scrutiny, criticism and abuse

To save re-reading the entire thread, if I didn't say so before......
There is no evidence that the precise shades of the coloured fuselages 1935-1937 were ever formally specified - beyond red, green, yellow etc

The colours Hellblau and Hellgrau might be the same as the RLM shades used by the Luftwaffe but there is no actual evidence one way or the other. The names simply mean Light Blue and Light Grey and could have been supplied from a variety of different manufacturers - each producing their own particular shade. As an illustration, try going to Halfords for a rattle can of white spray paint ! how many shades of white can there be ?????????

Luftwaffe colours were precise shades (still with some minor variations between batches) with prefix numbers such as RLM 65 Hellblau - so we know what shade the colour 65 actually was. Unfortunately documents, colour specifications and paint chips are not available for the period 1935-38, although some specified colours did exist in this period.

Unhelpfully there was an L40/52 Hellgrau as well as RLM63 Hellgrau.
Over the years Hellblau existed in different shades as RLM 65 (1938), RLM65 (1941), RM77, RLM78.
So before toddling off to your local model shop for a can of Hellblau - you have to think - which Hellblau !

In the meantime I am searching for photos of any gliders in Schulen markings and also a colour photo of schulen gliders . Any help appreciated.

Paul